War

[Mario_Charest1]

Hi Stephen,

I will rearrange your post to make easier to express myself

Please also note that I am not the original author of this post that you
are replying to, so, in one sense, I have “stuck my oar in”.
I hope it was not inappropriate to do so..

IMHO it was very appropriate, that’s the whole point of this whole threads
isn’t it, share ideas and opinions.

Please don’t take my responses as “preaching” in that sense that I am
angry with you for not believing what I do..

For your own confort, I am not.

God had His hand on the formation of this nation and I pray that God will
continue to bless America.

What makes you thing he does?

There is some evidence to suggest that He has in the past.

Please clarify?

I also pray that God will bless this entire world.

What make he hasn’t already done so?


I believe (strongly) that He has. The request is that He will do so some
more.

The original phrase used “will” which I understood (with my non native
english) as “in the futur”. While the previous sentence used present
tense when refering to US.

• I know very little people that will ask themselves if they
  have possibly done something wrong after receving a slap
  in the face.

• Describe God’s current feeling

I can not presume to know God’s current feeling, but from what I know
of him, I would say that he is very sad.

I don’t think he his.

Why do you not think so? God (of the Bible) tells us that He feels our
hurts, and wants to comfort us and strengthen us.

Because in the grand scale of things this is nothing, nothing to even
worry about. Stars explodes possibly destroying whole planet and
billion of living things. Are you sad about unknowingly killint ants?
I would assume not. God is perfect and is all , as such this events fits in
the
perfect scheme he created, why would he be sad about this.
He created it!

God sent his only Son into this
world so that ALL people would inherit eternal life.

We are all His creation - we are all the same in His eyes.
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)

“Fall short of the glory of God”? Funny I always assume he had
no expectation.


I guess that is why He had to tell us (in His Word) that He did indeed
have expectations for us!

I think that what ever happens in the universe is a result of
his expectation.

God doesn’t punish, why should we?


God does indeed punish! He may delay the punishment, and He may find a
willing and worthy substitute (Jesus - also God) to take your punishment
for you, but He punishes! Both on a personal and national level.

That I TOTALY disagree with, to punish you need some sort of value system
which I’m sure he doesn’t have as he is ALL value systems. I’m convince
this punishing thingy is man made, fear is control and that is what religion
is all about in most cases.

One of the most awesome things about God (to me personally) is that He is
a God of ABSOLUTE justice and truth - he will not “whitewash” any
wrondgdoing, but will hold all responsible for all of their unjust acts.
BUT - and an enormous but - He has found a way to satisfy those
requirements and still be able to show mercy and forgiveness to all (who
will accept it).

Everybody is forgiven since there is nothing to forgive.
Dinausors have been obliterated. Who should be
forgiven for that? Again I beleive this is a man made
concept (thus in some way created by god)

sacrificed to pay for the sins of man (His creation).


sins? Based on who’s authority? Sins is IMHO a man
made concept to induce fear and to control. I don’t
beleive their is such a thing as sin.


Isn’t this a silly question (if you think about it)?
Obviously by God’s authority (as revealed in his Word).
You may not recognize the authority - and you have free will, and
therefore the right to decide not to accept this as authority, but surely
it is clear that the writer, at least, has implied that this is his
authority?

That’s the point; various religion have various concept of sins.
I am not ready to accept that one of these religion is THE religion,
hence in my view there can not be ONE concept of sins. If there
is multiple concept of sins how would god deal with that? Simple
he doesn’t only man deal with that.

To be forgiven means you would have to judged, I’m surely hope
god is way way beyong judging.

I beleive in the scale of evolution from 0-100 we are at probably
5. I’m hope we will grow beyond judging, beyond fear, beyond
violence, beyond sins, beyond our very limited self. I hope
will become God, and I would sure hope God isn’t one to judge,
to define what sins are, cause then men would be not better then
what we am today.
one


The finishing touch;

One thing I’m very concious about is that this is MY reality and that
I’m sure it’s wrong. 10 years ago this is not what I was saying and
in 10 years from now I’d probably change my mind as well. God
will be something else for me. In fact I have no problem with
totaly redefining what God is, even it’s existence. I feel there
are billions of truth out there, all of them being as good as any other.
I’m trying to respect them all. Not relying on any of these thruth
to be THE thruth give me a sense of freedom .

I love sharing my views with other, cause I need other to share
theirs, it helps me choose/refine/define where i want my thruth to go.

Actually as I type this, I’m REALLY asking myself if you could be
right. I know you could, but so could I, so could we all…

[Norton_Allen2]

Mario Charest wrote:

That’s the point; various religion have various concept of sins.
I am not ready to accept that one of these religion is THE religion,
hence in my view there can not be ONE concept of sins. If there
is multiple concept of sins how would god deal with that? Simple
he doesn’t only man deal with that.

Mario,

I think you are over-emphasizing the differences between religions.
I believe there is much more in common between them than there is
dividing them. I also think you are taking an exceedingly logical
view of “truth”. Because we imperfect humans perceive a conflict
between two statements does not necessarily mean that they are
not both “true”. What you and I see as a major conflict may not be
a conflict in the eyes of God, but you cannot necessarily conclude
that God does not care about anything.

FWIW, I believe in one God, but I believe there are many paths to Him.

[Mario_Charest1]

“Norton Allen” <allen@huarp.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:3BA76D4D.6F9E531A@huarp.harvard.edu…

Mario Charest wrote:
That’s the point; various religion have various concept of sins.
I am not ready to accept that one of these religion is THE religion,
hence in my view there can not be ONE concept of sins. If there
is multiple concept of sins how would god deal with that? Simple
he doesn’t only man deal with that.

Mario,

I think you are over-emphasizing the differences between religions.
I believe there is much more in common between them than there is
dividing them.

Quite true, thanks!

I also think you are taking an exceedingly logical
view of “truth”. Because we imperfect humans perceive a conflict
between two statements does not necessarily mean that they are
not both “true”.

I totaly agree with that.

What you and I see as a major conflict may not be
a conflict in the eyes of God, but you cannot necessarily conclude
that God does not care about anything.

I didn’t say the didn’t care (actually I have no freaking idea what
he things), I think he has a “well if that’s what it’s going to be”
attitude. I don’t things he’s saying “oh my God(sic) what have I done”.
He probably share everyone’s pain and pleasure…

FWIW, I believe in one God, but I believe there are many paths to Him.

I will add: I beleive we are all baby Gods (not just human)

[Stephen_Munnings]

In article <9o7n62$j9j$1@inn.qnx.com>, mcharest@clipzinformatic.com
says…

Hi Stephen,

I will rearrange your post to make easier to express myself

Please also note that I am not the original author of this post that you
are replying to, so, in one sense, I have “stuck my oar in”.
I hope it was not inappropriate to do so..


IMHO it was very appropriate, that’s the whole point of this whole threads
isn’t it, share ideas and opinions.

Good



Please don’t take my responses as “preaching” in that sense that I am
angry with you for not believing what I do..

For your own confort, I am not.

Good



God had His hand on the formation of this nation and I pray that God will
continue to bless America.

What makes you thing he does?

There is some evidence to suggest that He has in the past.

Please clarify?

I believe that God has blessed America (U.S.) in material ways by making
her a strong and rich nation. I believe that this is a consequence of
both natural and supernatural influences.
Natural influences: When a nation (in general) follows the guidelines
for conduct that the Creator has laid out in his “Guidebook for the Human
Race” (the Bible), then the natural consequence(influence) is that that
nation prospers (in many ways). I believe that it is fairly evident that
this has hapened with U.S.A
Supernatural influences: God’s intervention in a special way. There are
probably evidences of this too, but this is harder to argue, and I have
no particular instances to mention. However, if you do not believe that
the US (and to a similar extent Canada) have been blessed by the natural
influences, then it more or less only leaves the supernatural influences.
Either way, I believe that the propserity of U.S.A. is a sign of God’s
blessing - whether is is really deserved or not. Of course, if you do
not believe in punishment, do you really believe that anybody deserves
rewards or blessing - they are the two sides of the same coin.

(This covers past to the present)

I also pray that God will bless this entire world.

What make he hasn’t already done so?


I believe (strongly) that He has. The request is that He will do so some
more.


The original phrase used “will” which I understood (with my non native
english) as “in the futur”. While the previous sentence used present
tense when refering to US.

O.K. This is maybe a little language confusion.
The original statment does refer to the future. It is however, neutral
with regards to the past - it does not imply that God has not blessed the
rest of the world, and it does not imply that God has - it just doesn’t
say.
For you to reply “What make he hasn’t already done so?” suggests to me
that you think that the original statement indicates that God has not
blessed this entire world. I do not believe that the original speaker
intended to imply that. Certainly, I did not read that into the
statement.

(Properly - What makes you think that He hasn’t already done so - at
least that is how I read it)

• I know very little people that will ask themselves if they
  have possibly done something wrong after receving a slap
  in the face.

• Describe God’s current feeling

I can not presume to know God’s current feeling, but from what I know
of him, I would say that he is very sad.

I don’t think he his.

Why do you not think so? God (of the Bible) tells us that He feels our
hurts, and wants to comfort us and strengthen us.


Because in the grand scale of things this is nothing, nothing to even
worry about. Stars explodes possibly destroying whole planet and
billion of living things. Are you sad about unknowingly killint ants?
I would assume not. God is perfect and is all , as such this events fits in
the
perfect scheme he created, why would he be sad about this.
He created it!

A great argument, and one often bought up!
However, God (as revealed in the Bible, at least) takes a very keen and
personal interest in each and every one of us!
I am not sad about unknowingly killing ants - that is because I do not
have the unlimited capacity to understand and care for each one. I only
have the capacity to somewhat understand and care for a very few people
personally. I do not feel sad in a direct sense about anybody killed in
the WTC - I did not know any of them. I feel very sad in an indirect way
about those lives lost, and the lives affected by them.
God, however, as a truly infinite being does have the capacity to
understand and care about each and every one of us! The Bible (if you
accept it as an authority) even tells us so! It even goes on to indicate
that God cares about individual birds.

God is perfect, but would you consider a being perfect if he/she/it could
not empathize with another being’s pain?

The question of how a perfect God could allow such suffering also comes
up. That makes for a long and involved discussion! I don’t have time to
cover that one! The short (and probably unsatisfactory for many) answer
is that God gave each one of us an enormously valuable gift: free choice.
It was so important for Him to give us true free choice that He even
accepts the consequence that we can (and do) use it for evil at times.
It was as a result of the excercise of this free choice (for evil) that
suffering and death came for us.

God sent his only Son into this
world so that ALL people would inherit eternal life.

We are all His creation - we are all the same in His eyes.
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)

“Fall short of the glory of God”? Funny I always assume he had
no expectation.


I guess that is why He had to tell us (in His Word) that He did indeed
have expectations for us!

I think that what ever happens in the universe is a result of
his expectation.

So, you do not believe that you have the freedom (given by God) to choose
to do or not to do many actions? That you have the choice to do good or
bad things? That God has made you a puppet, and that everything you do
has been “carved in stone” and you cannot change anything?

God doesn’t punish, why should we?


God does indeed punish! He may delay the punishment, and He may find a
willing and worthy substitute (Jesus - also God) to take your punishment
for you, but He punishes! Both on a personal and national level.

That I TOTALY disagree with, to punish you need some sort of value system
which I’m sure he doesn’t have as he is ALL value systems. I’m convince
this punishing thingy is man made, fear is control and that is what religion
is all about in most cases.

Hmmmm! I agree that some men have used religion as a means of fear and
control. However, I strongly disagree that that is what (true) religion
is all about! As to value systems, again we have differing views!
I do NOT think that God is ALL value systems - I think that a “value
system” is something created by God, and he not only created only one
value system, but that He Himself, has decided to abide by it Himself
(voluntarily).
I believe that he created the absolute best value system possible, and
has revealed to us the major structure of the system, and how to do our
best to follow it.
I believe that it is based on ABSOLUTE fairness to all! Equity and
justice in their full glory (and fearsome strength)
I believe that making up our own “value systems” is simply an activity
which we do because we “are made in God’s image” and when we wish to
become “our own God” which the Bible tells us is a common (but wrong)
practice.

One of the most awesome things about God (to me personally) is that He is
a God of ABSOLUTE justice and truth - he will not “whitewash” any
wrondgdoing, but will hold all responsible for all of their unjust acts.
BUT - and an enormous but - He has found a way to satisfy those
requirements and still be able to show mercy and forgiveness to all (who
will accept it).

Everybody is forgiven since there is nothing to forgive.
Dinausors have been obliterated. Who should be
forgiven for that? Again I beleive this is a man made
concept (thus in some way created by god)

What you are stating here is that you do not believe in the value system
revealed in the Bible.
I happen to believe in the value system revealed to us by God.
As to the dinosaurs, what relevance do they have to this topic. Nobody
is even sure just how they were obliterated..

sacrificed to pay for the sins of man (His creation).


sins? Based on who’s authority? Sins is IMHO a man
made concept to induce fear and to control. I don’t
beleive their is such a thing as sin.


Isn’t this a silly question (if you think about it)?
Obviously by God’s authority (as revealed in his Word).
You may not recognize the authority - and you have free will, and
therefore the right to decide not to accept this as authority, but surely
it is clear that the writer, at least, has implied that this is his
authority?

That’s the point; various religion have various concept of sins.
I am not ready to accept that one of these religion is THE religion,
hence in my view there can not be ONE concept of sins. If there
is multiple concept of sins how would god deal with that? Simple
he doesn’t only man deal with that.

To be forgiven means you would have to judged, I’m surely hope
god is way way beyong judging.

What makes you think that judging is a bad thing?

(You make judgements - in the same meaning of the word - every day as you
write programs. Is this good coding practice, bad practice? Should I
use an array or 4 seperate variables? )
The often misused biblical injunction “judge not so that you will not be
judged”, does not indicate that judging is wrong, merely to be used
wisely indeed.
The Bible states that “revenge is mine says the Lord”.
I believe it is because we distort and misuse revenge and punishment (we
are not totally fair about it) that we must be extremely careful in doing
it, and leave the excercise of judgment to God.

I beleive in the scale of evolution from 0-100 we are at probably
5. I’m hope we will grow beyond judging, beyond fear, beyond
violence, beyond sins, beyond our very limited self. I hope
will become God, and I would sure hope God isn’t one to judge,
to define what sins are, cause then men would be not better then
what we am today.
one

I understand your belief. It does differ considerably from mine!
However, I believe that even in religious things, we must be aware of
what reality is, and not base our thinking and actions on wishful
thinking!
You are “hoping” this and “hoping” that… nice ideas, but still just
“hoping”.
I base my beliefs on what I beleive to be the revealed reality. Revealed
to us from the Creator who made not only us, but the entire universe in
all its complexity.
I approach my “religion” in much the same way I approach my Software
Development. Do research, find out the facts, act in the light of those
facts.
I do not think that “religion” is a seperate realm where “what we wish
makes it so” or “if you wish hard enough, it will happen”, or even “all
ways lead to God”.. Unfortunately, I do not believe that those thoughts
match the reality of the situation, and those mistaken will face negative
consequences (as do all victims of con games and scams)…

The finishing touch;

One thing I’m very concious about is that this is MY reality and that
I’m sure it’s wrong. 10 years ago this is not what I was saying and
in 10 years from now I’d probably change my mind as well. God
will be something else for me. In fact I have no problem with
totaly redefining what God is, even it’s existence. I feel there
are billions of truth out there, all of them being as good as any other.
I’m trying to respect them all. Not relying on any of these thruth
to be THE thruth give me a sense of freedom .

You put “religion” in a seperate “cubicle” from the rest of your life.
You do not approach programming saying - there are billions of truths out
there, all of them being as good as any other.
You would not believe that IBM PC’s have 47 bit general registers - that
is just simply not the truth! There are many truths about Computers,
Programming, concrete things, and Life, but there are many lies too!
And truths do NOT contradict each other! When things contradict, there
is some untruth in there somewhere!

If you understand and follow this reasoning, then the “religion” of
following Jesus is in contradiction with the idea that “all religions are
valid”. Jesus states that he is “THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE”.
(And the definite singular article - implying the only way, the only
truth, and the only life - is very much intended! It only makes sense in
the context, where the disciples are somewhat grappling with this very
question!)

This means that you rationally have no option but to conclude that “not
all religions can be as good as any other”.
If you wish to make that statement, then you must at the very least
consign to a lower place those religions that state that that is not so!
They contradict your belief, how can you consider them “truth”?
(Christianity, Islam, Orthodox Judeaism, and many more)

When you say “God will be something else for me” is this a statement that
you will be searching for whatever God may be, or that you (as God in one
sense) will decide for yourself what God best suits you at that moment?

I love sharing my views with other, cause I need other to share
theirs, it helps me choose/refine/define where i want my thruth to go.

I too enjoy this activity, and I would not be going on and on about this
subject, unless I thought that you really did want to hear my thoughts!

Actually as I type this, I’m REALLY asking myself if you could be
right. I know you could, but so could I, so could we all…

Well, that is a healthy position, and one that should be present in at
least one stage of a person’s life. One should not simply blindly accept
ones beliefs but should have well thought out reasons for them.

–
Stephen Munnings
Software Developer
Corman Technologies Inc.

[Igor_Kovalenko2]

Stephen Munnings wrote:

I believe that God has blessed America (U.S.) in material ways by making
her a strong and rich nation. I believe that this is a consequence of
both natural and supernatural influences.
Natural influences: When a nation (in general) follows the guidelines
for conduct that the Creator has laid out in his “Guidebook for the Human
Race” (the Bible), then the natural consequence(influence) is that that
nation prospers (in many ways). I believe that it is fairly evident that
this has hapened with U.S.A

Then God(s?) also has blessed ancient Egypt, which was greatest/richest
civilisation for thousands of years, then Greece and Rome as well as
China, then perhaps Britain which was greatest/richest empire for some
time. They were also eventually ‘disblessed’.

US only exists for about 300 years and it was not too prosperous for
most of that time. It was only last 100 years, which most of European
countries spent in bloody wars on their territory what allowed US to
jump so much ahead. Have you ever tried to play a realtime strategy game
with 2 other guys 1 vs 1 vs 1? Usually the weakest one wins, because 2
stronger ones care more about getting rid of each other first and by the
time they’re exhausted the weakest one only comes into fight.

I don’t know if blessings had to do anything with those
historical/geographical realities, but honestly I don’t think so.

Either way, I believe that the propserity of U.S.A. is a sign of God’s
blessing - whether is is really deserved or not.

That would be ‘wishful thinking’, IMHO. It certainly pleases everyone to
think that way about his country. Believe me, almost every other nation
which at some point knew times of glory thinks that way about itself.

• Jews believe their nation not only blessed, but created by God and
  they all are in ‘treaty’ with God.

• Chinese think that China is next thing to Heaven and the rest of the
  world is hopelessly barbarian. I’ve read somewhere (don’t know how true
  is it so I am ready to be corrected by chineese people) that when the
  very first chineese foreign delegation (to England) came back, they did
  not dare to tell emperor that British rulers do not speak mandarin (it
  was presumption that any civilized person could be speaking nothing
  but mandarin). Keep in mind, China existed, and relatively speaking
  prospered for 10,000 years, before being shown that there are other
  ‘blessed’ ones.

• Many russians believe their nation has some sort of ‘special mission’
  in the world, don’t know where it will lead them.

• Germans and Japanese used to think their race is ‘superior’, until
  they were convinced otherwise, with great deal of pain for whole world.

Now, americans may think USA is ‘blessed’ by God. That might even appear
so, for a long while. Just wait for couple of thousands of years. Or
read a history book

• Igor

‘History teaches us only one thing. That is, we do not learn anything
from history’.

[Igor_Kovalenko2]

Jim Douglas wrote:

I have a few salient points that are derived from the UK media. I put them
forward for discussion. They are not my views…

1. Only around 7% of the US population has passports. The US media devotes
   such a disproportionate time/space to domestic news that world news is
   virtually excluded. Ergo the US population is, in general, ignorant of world
   affairs. It’s not surprising they can’t comprehend why anyone has a motive
   for attacking them.

Problem is not only with news coverage. I was really shoked when figured
how do they teach geography in schools. To say it is US-centric would
be a huge understatement.

My daughter once was asked by another girl, ‘which Russia you are from,
left one or right one?’ I will leave it for public entertainment to
guess what the question meant

• Igor

[Stephen_Munnings]

In article <3BA78123.8B6386C4@motorola.com>, Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com
says…

Stephen Munnings wrote:

I believe that God has blessed America (U.S.) in material ways by making
her a strong and rich nation. I believe that this is a consequence of
both natural and supernatural influences.
Natural influences: When a nation (in general) follows the guidelines
for conduct that the Creator has laid out in his “Guidebook for the Human
Race” (the Bible), then the natural consequence(influence) is that that
nation prospers (in many ways). I believe that it is fairly evident that
this has hapened with U.S.A

Then God(s?) also has blessed ancient Egypt, which was greatest/richest
civilisation for thousands of years, then Greece and Rome as well as
China, then perhaps Britain which was greatest/richest empire for some
time. They were also eventually ‘disblessed’.

Yes! (and sorta no)

“Every good and every perfect gift comes from above!”
I do not mean especially that U.S.A was blessed above all others!
I do not really think that “God’s blessing” on a nation (while a
wonderful thing) is anything to be compared to God’s blessing on an
individual (which is more spiritual and often not material)..

US only exists for about 300 years and it was not too prosperous for
most of that time. It was only last 100 years, which most of European
countries spent in bloody wars on their territory what allowed US to
jump so much ahead. Have you ever tried to play a realtime strategy game
with 2 other guys 1 vs 1 vs 1? Usually the weakest one wins, because 2
stronger ones care more about getting rid of each other first and by the
time they’re exhausted the weakest one only comes into fight.

I don’t know if blessings had to do anything with those
historical/geographical realities, but honestly I don’t think so.

Feel free to think so. God does not tell me which part of prosperity is
“His special blessing” (as opposed to “His ordinary blessing”)
This is just my guess anyway. It is how I read the evidence..

Either way, I believe that the propserity of U.S.A. is a sign of God’s
blessing - whether is is really deserved or not.

That would be ‘wishful thinking’, IMHO. It certainly pleases everyone to
think that way about his country. Believe me, almost every other nation
which at some point knew times of glory thinks that way about itself.

And rightly so - but not necessarily a “deserved blessing”..

• Jews believe their nation not only blessed, but created by God and
  they all are in ‘treaty’ with God.

Well, there they have the truth! They are!
Too bad they (as a nation) rejected the Messiah when he came - this has
caused “strained relations” for a while!

• Chinese think that China is next thing to Heaven and the rest of the
  world is hopelessly barbarian. I’ve read somewhere (don’t know how true
  is it so I am ready to be corrected by chineese people) that when the
  very first chineese foreign delegation (to England) came back, they did
  not dare to tell emperor that British rulers do not speak mandarin (it
  was presumption that any civilized person could be speaking nothing
  but mandarin). Keep in mind, China existed, and relatively speaking
  prospered for 10,000 years, before being shown that there are other
  ‘blessed’ ones.

• Many russians believe their nation has some sort of ‘special mission’
  in the world, don’t know where it will lead them.

• Germans and Japanese used to think their race is ‘superior’, until
  they were convinced otherwise, with great deal of pain for whole world.

Superior and blessed are two different things. Blessed should not lead
to pride - but often does.

Now, americans may think USA is ‘blessed’ by God. That might even appear
so, for a long while. Just wait for couple of thousands of years. Or
read a history book >

Indeed, once blessed by God does not automatically mean always blessed by
God. Especially as more and more Americans leave God, it is less and
less likely that they will be continued to be blessed.
God does not even always cause his blessing to fall on those that
“deserve” it. He delights in giving his blessing. Only evil men and
evil actions will eventually result in his “removing his blessing”.

• Igor

‘History teaches us only one thing. That is, we do not learn anything
from history’.

Very untrue! History teaches us general lessons - the history of Israel
is very instructive on what happens when a nation leaves God. However,
it does not lay out in detail the answers to everything, there are always
new challenges and new problems. But those that ignore history (as per
that last phrase) ignore a very valuable source of information.

As I told my kids:
There are three general classes of people in this world, Normal, Stupid,
and Smart.
What distinguishes them is this:
Normal people learn from their mistakes.
Stupid people do not, and repeat their mistakes.
Smart people learn from other peoples mistakes! (and save themselves a
lot of grief)

That is the value of history!

–
Stephen Munnings
Software Developer
Corman Technologies Inc.

[Mario_Charest1]

“Stephen Munnings” <steve@cormantech.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1611408dee2d17749896ba@inn.qnx.com…

In article <9o7n62$j9j$> 1@inn.qnx.com> >, > mcharest@clipzinformatic.com
says…

Hi Stephen,

I will rearrange your post to make easier to express myself

Please also note that I am not the original author of this post that
you
are replying to, so, in one sense, I have “stuck my oar in”.
I hope it was not inappropriate to do so..


IMHO it was very appropriate, that’s the whole point of this whole
threads
isn’t it, share ideas and opinions.

Good

Please don’t take my responses as “preaching” in that sense that I am
angry with you for not believing what I do..

For your own confort, I am not.

Good

God had His hand on the formation of this nation and I pray that God
will
continue to bless America.

What makes you thing he does?

There is some evidence to suggest that He has in the past.

Please clarify?


I believe that God has blessed America (U.S.) in material ways by making
her a strong and rich nation. I believe that this is a consequence of
both natural and supernatural influences.



Natural influences: When a nation (in general) follows the guidelines
for conduct that the Creator has laid out in his “Guidebook for the Human
Race” (the Bible), then the natural consequence(influence) is that that
nation prospers (in many ways). I believe that it is fairly evident that
this has hapened with U.S.A

I don’t see it that way. I think and hope people are blessed equally not
depending
on what they have done nor on what their government does… What is evident
in
US and other country alike, is they have gain wealth and material. I think
a hunter that catches an antilope is as blessed as you and me.

Supernatural influences: God’s intervention in a special way. There are
probably evidences of this too, but this is harder to argue, and I have
no particular instances to mention. However, if you do not believe that
the US (and to a similar extent Canada) have been blessed by the natural
influences, then it more or less only leaves the supernatural influences.
Either way, I believe that the propserity of U.S.A. is a sign of God’s
blessing - whether is is really deserved or not.

I think its evolution.

Of course, if you do
not believe in punishment, do you really believe that anybody deserves
rewards or blessing - they are the two sides of the same coin.

That is the case.

O.K. This is maybe a little language confusion.
The original statment does refer to the future. It is however, neutral
with regards to the past - it does not imply that God has not blessed the
rest of the world, and it does not imply that God has - it just doesn’t
say.

Ok

For you to reply “What make he hasn’t already done so?” suggests to me
that you think that the original statement indicates that God has not
blessed this entire world.

I think the opossite. To clarify I would hope God has no preferences.

I do not believe that the original speaker
intended to imply that. Certainly, I did not read that into the
statement.



Because in the grand scale of things this is nothing, nothing to even
worry about. Stars explodes possibly destroying whole planet and
billion of living things. Are you sad about unknowingly killint ants?
I would assume not. God is perfect and is all , as such this events
fits in
the perfect scheme he created, why would he be sad about this.
He created it!


A great argument, and one often bought up!
However, God (as revealed in the Bible, at least) takes a very keen and
personal interest in each and every one of us!

I am not sad about unknowingly killing ants - that is because I do not
have the unlimited capacity to understand and care for each one.

Or because it could make your life unbarable. If we’d care we
be sad all the time.

I only have the capacity to somewhat understand and care for a very few
people
personally. I do not feel sad in a direct sense about anybody killed in
the WTC - I did not know any of them. I feel very sad in an indirect way
about those lives lost, and the lives affected by them.

Could be, but that also means he feels happiness for the people that
perpatrate this act.

God, however, as a truly infinite being does have the capacity to
understand and care about each and every one of us!

The Bible (if you accept it as an authority)

No I don’t

even tells us so! It even goes on to indicate that God cares about
individual birds.

God is perfect, but would you consider a being perfect if he/she/it could
not empathize with another being’s pain?

Can’t compute

The question of how a perfect God could allow such suffering also comes
up. That makes for a long and involved discussion! I don’t have time to
cover that one! The short (and probably unsatisfactory for many) answer
is that God gave each one of us an enormously valuable gift: free choice.

Totaly agree.

It was so important for Him to give us true free choice that He even
accepts the consequence that we can (and do) use it for evil at times.

I think evil is man made. Take the human out of the equation, we haven’t
been in this universe for very long (2-4 millions out of 15 billions
apparently).
All that happen before “us” contains an infinite amount of violence and
evil, who’s sin is it. Who’s going to be judge for this. Is a super nova
going
to be judge as evil because it blows away entire planet, na it won’t.

It was as a result of the excercise of this free choice (for evil) that
suffering and death came for us.



God sent his only Son into this
world so that ALL people would inherit eternal life.

We are all His creation - we are all the same in His eyes.
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans
3:23)

“Fall short of the glory of God”? Funny I always assume he had
no expectation.


I guess that is why He had to tell us (in His Word) that He did indeed
have expectations for us!

I think that what ever happens in the universe is a result of
his expectation.


So, you do not believe that you have the freedom (given by God) to choose
to do or not to do many actions? That you have the choice to do good or
bad things? That God has made you a puppet, and that everything you do
has been “carved in stone” and you cannot change anything?

No I don’t and that’s the way it was design.

God doesn’t punish, why should we?


God does indeed punish! He may delay the punishment, and He may find
a
willing and worthy substitute (Jesus - also God) to take your
punishment
for you, but He punishes! Both on a personal and national level.

That I TOTALY disagree with, to punish you need some sort of value
system
which I’m sure he doesn’t have as he is ALL value systems. I’m convince
this punishing thingy is man made, fear is control and that is what
religion
is all about in most cases.


Hmmmm! I agree that some men have used religion as a means of fear and
control. However, I strongly disagree that that is what (true) religion
is all about! As to value systems, again we have differing views!
I do NOT think that God is ALL value systems - I think that a “value
system” is something created by God, and he not only created only one
value system, but that He Himself, has decided to abide by it Himself
(voluntarily).

I believe that he created the absolute best value system possible, and
has revealed to us the major structure of the system, and how to do our
best to follow it.

Our brain is extremely limited, “the major structure of the system” is IMHO
a MAJOR overstatement. The system is far more complex, it is beyond
our comprehension. That system may include the human blowing itself
up.

Everybody is forgiven since there is nothing to forgive.
Dinausors have been obliterated. Who should be
forgiven for that? Again I beleive this is a man made
concept (thus in some way created by god)


What you are stating here is that you do not believe in the value system
revealed in the Bible.

Hum I really don’t know, I would have to say that they only think
I’d care about is the love part.

I happen to believe in the value system revealed to us by God.



As to the dinosaurs, what relevance do they have to this topic. Nobody
is even sure just how they were obliterated..

Doesn’t matter, they were, I just wonder who/what is being judge for that?

To be forgiven means you would have to judged, I’m surely hope
god is way way beyong judging.

What makes you think that judging is a bad thing?

Gut feeling I guess.

(You make judgements - in the same meaning of the word - every day as you
write programs. Is this good coding practice, bad practice? Should I
use an array or 4 seperate variables? )

Hum I don’t judge, I evaluate, better or worse, not good and bad.
The feeling that it creates is very different.

The often misused biblical injunction “judge not so that you will not be
judged”, does not indicate that judging is wrong, merely to be used
wisely indeed.

That is one’s interpretation.

The Bible states that “revenge is mine says the Lord”.

Man made.

I believe it is because we distort and misuse revenge and punishment (we
are not totally fair about it) that we must be extremely careful in doing
it, and leave the excercise of judgment to God.


I beleive in the scale of evolution from 0-100 we are at probably
5. I’m hope we will grow beyond judging, beyond fear, beyond
violence, beyond sins, beyond our very limited self. I hope
will become God, and I would sure hope God isn’t one to judge,
to define what sins are, cause then men would be not better then
what we am today.
one


I understand your belief. It does differ considerably from mine!

Isn’t it great

However, I believe that even in religious things, we must be aware of
what reality is, and not base our thinking and actions on wishful
thinking!

Hang tight Want to talk about reality, here is what I think. I think
the Universe is a stage, a stage for God to play all the billions of
billions of
billions of billions of possible act and role.

For all I know, I could be computer simulation, I could be a brains
hook up to some machine. I don’t think we can comprehend what
reality is, it’s a concept out of our reach.

You are “hoping” this and “hoping” that… nice ideas, but still just
“hoping”.

Yes.

I base my beliefs on what I beleive to be the revealed reality. Revealed
to us from the Creator who made not only us, but the entire universe in
all its complexity.
I approach my “religion” in much the same way I approach my Software
Development. Do research, find out the facts, act in the light of those
fact
..
I do not think that “religion” is a seperate realm where “what we wish
makes it so” or “if you wish hard enough, it will happen”, or even “all
ways lead to God”.. Unfortunately, I do not believe that those thoughts
match the reality of the situation, and those mistaken will face negative
consequences (as do all victims of con games and scams)…


The finishing touch;

One thing I’m very concious about is that this is MY reality and that
I’m sure it’s wrong. 10 years ago this is not what I was saying and
in 10 years from now I’d probably change my mind as well. God
will be something else for me. In fact I have no problem with
totaly redefining what God is, even it’s existence. I feel there
are billions of truth out there, all of them being as good as any other.
I’m trying to respect them all. Not relying on any of these thruth
to be THE thruth give me a sense of freedom .



You put “religion” in a seperate “cubicle” from the rest of your life.

Then is not what I mean. I don’t know about english, but where I come
from, the word religion is attach to an organisation of some sort, that
dictate what god is.

I create my own religion. I look at all that is out there and make it
up as I go along.

You do not approach programming saying - there are billions of truths out
there, all of them being as good as any other.

You would not believe that IBM PC’s have 47 bit general registers - that
is just simply not the truth!

Good point, i wouldn’t then change the world truth for views or reality.

There are many truths about Computers,
Programming, concrete things, and Life, but there are many lies too!
And truths do NOT contradict each other!

I totaly agree with that.

When things contradict, there is some untruth in there somewhere!

This I don’t agree.

If you understand and follow this reasoning, then the “religion” of
following Jesus is in contradiction with the idea that “all religions are
valid”.

Absolutely not, it means that you are right in persuing your own
religion.

Jesus states that he is “THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE”.

Well there is another guy that said the same, who’s right. They
all layed out different rules ( man interpreted differenlty
what each of them god’s representative said).

Yes he could be,
(And the definite singular article - implying the only way, the only
truth, and the only life - is very much intended! It only makes sense in
the context, where the disciples are somewhat grappling with this very
question!)

This means that you rationally have no option but to conclude that “not
all religions can be as good as any other”.

I’m not sure about about this but I’d say yes. I’ll clarify (although
I’m quite confuse myself ) Some religions are probably better then
others, it all depends where you want to go. But i beleive “other
religions”
serves a purpuse hence they are good as well.

If you wish to make that statement, then you must at the very least
consign to a lower place those religions that state that that is not so!

No I don’t

They contradict your belief, how can you consider them “truth”?
(Christianity, Islam, Orthodox Judeaism, and many more)

I can’t explain it, I don’t know out to express or phrase this emotion.
Let’s say I won’t put down ANY of them cause they have the potential
to be the truth.

When you say “God will be something else for me” is this a statement that
you will be searching for whatever God may be, or that you (as God in one
sense) will decide for yourself what God best suits you at that moment?

Both. My current definition of God doesn’t suits me at all, but
better then it use to. I’m frustrated by my own limitation at
understanding a concept such as God. I’m just not willing to
use the bible as my only reference.

I guess people that don’t beleive in any God are having a laught at the
moment, lol!
I have a friend who doesn’t beleive in any type of God makes up for
interesting
discussion.

[Armin2]

Stephen Munnings wrote:
[ clip …]
Very untrue! History teaches us general lessons - the history of Israelis very
instructive on what happens when a nation leaves God.
[clip …]

Stephen, please tell me that this is not your serious opinion !!

I’m very astonished to read in that thread such nationalistic colored
religious fundamentalism =:-/

Armin

[Glenn_Sherman1]

“Stephen Munnings” <steve@cormantech.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.16111ed61c4f85a69896b9@inn.qnx.com…

In article <9o66d5$kfc$> 1@inn.qnx.com> >, > mcharest@nowayzinformatic.com
says…

“Glenn Sherman” <gsherman@remove_this.m20.net> wrote in message
news:9o5rrc$emi$> 1@inn.qnx.com> …

“Mario Charest” <> mcharest@clipzinformatic.com> > wrote in message
news:9o57s2$2u5$> 1@inn.qnx.com> …

“Mario Charest” <> mcharest@nowayzinformatic.com> > wrote in message
news:9nucd3$mej$> 1@inn.qnx.com> …

Anyone interested in giving a new kick start to this thread,
I got a few ideas > > Anyone wanting to tell me to shut up
is welcome to do so.


Ok then so here goes; I will use few words to give maximum
number of possible interpretation (don’t dare guessing what
I’m thinking )

• Target was called WORLD Trace Center.

• Of all the video of the incident, the most heard words were:
  “holly shit”, what’s so holly about shit?

• What does “God Bless America” means?

I wonder also (for most people). I know what it means for me.
The United States was formed by a group of men who were
escaping religious persecution. This nation was based on Christian
principles. Our founding fathers did not wish to see religion kept
out of government, but the opposite - keep the government out
of religion. Our founding fathers knew how important it was to have
God in our government. God had His hand on the formation of this
nation and I pray that God will continue to bless America.

What makes you thing he does?

There is some evidence to suggest that He has in the past. The prayer (or
request) is that He will in the future.


I also pray that God will bless this entire world.

What make he hasn’t already done so?


I believe (strongly) that He has. The request is that He will do so some
more.

Thanks for the follow-up Stephen. I did indeed mean it past, present, and
future. (Unfortunately, I am very busy right now.)
After all, this is His creation - why wouldn’t he want to Bless it.

• I know very little people that will ask themselves if they
  have possibly done something wrong after receving a slap
  in the face.

• Describe God’s current feeling

I can not presume to know God’s current feeling, but from what I know
of him, I would say that he is very sad.

I don’t think he his.

Why do you not think so? God (of the Bible) tells us that He feels our
hurts, and wants to comfort us and strengthen us.


God sent his only Son into this
world so that ALL people would inherit eternal life.

We are all His creation - we are all the same in His eyes.
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)

“Fall short of the glory of God”? Funny I always assume he had
no expectation.


I guess that is why He had to tell us (in His Word) that He did indeed
have expectations for us!

It bother’s me to see so many people crying out for revenge. I do
think
that we need to protect ourselves and the rest of the world from
events
like this happening again, but Jesus said
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who
hate
you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke
6:27,28)

Easier said then done, but I agree


Jesus made many hard requests of his followers. Not fully following them
is what has made a lot of people believe that “Christians are
hypocrites”. But, please remember - they are HARD to do!

There is a difference between punishment and revenge.
Punishment is a means of correction so that the same action is not
repeated.
We need to punish the act but love the person. (That is much easier to
say
than to do)

God doesn’t punish, why should we?


God does indeed punish! He may delay the punishment, and He may find a
willing and worthy substitute (Jesus - also God) to take your punishment
for you, but He punishes! Both on a personal and national level.
One of the most awesome things about God (to me personally) is that He is
a God of ABSOLUTE justice and truth - he will not “whitewash” any
wrondgdoing, but will hold all responsible for all of their unjust acts.
BUT - and an enormous but - He has found a way to satisfy those
requirements and still be able to show mercy and forgiveness to all (who
will accept it).
This is why Jesus had to suffer and die, so that God could forgive and
still be unswervingly just and fair!

Amen. One day, we will all be judged by our Creator - hopefully you
(everyone) will have Jesus to stand in your place.

-snip-
The One that created the universe (including us).
The One who took on the form of a man and was

sacrificed to pay for the sins of man (His creation).


sins? Based on who’s authority? Sins is IMHO a man
made concept to induce fear and to control. I don’t
beleive their is such a thing as sin.

Sin was a term used in the ancient world to describe the
distance that an arrow missed the bull’s eye. The distance
from the bull’s eye to the arrow was refered to as the ‘sin’.
Because we are incapable of measuring up to God’s holy
standards, we have sin.

Isn’t this a silly question (if you think about it)?
Obviously by God’s authority (as revealed in his Word).
You may not recognize the authority - and you have free will, and
therefore the right to decide not to accept this as authority, but surely
it is clear that the writer, at least, has implied that this is his
authority?


Whether you belive it or not, there are many gods on this Earth,
but only one true God. The God of the Bible.

Oh boy, that could get me started, lol! But I’ll refrain


Please don’t take my responses as “preaching” in that sense that I am
angry with you for not believing what I do..

If you do not care to hear(read) any more, you may leave off this post
here. The rest deals with my motives, state of mind, and why I bothered
to respond to this post. Could be irrelevent to most..

It is not a direct attempt to “make you believe the sames things that I
do”. I am all for “converting” people, but the only way that makes any
real sense to me is to explain - as thoroughly as I am able, and only as
much as my listener is willing to hear.
After that, the listener must decide for him/herself on how they wish to
respond to it.
I fully and firmly believe that God has revealed himself to us through
the Bible and His Son, and revealed to us what he wants and expects.
I fully believe that it is to your eternal loss if you do not believe.
However, having said that, I cannot MAKE you believe, and it is your
right to believe or not!
I try to convince others in what I believe is the most effective way.

1. I don’t want to badger, harass, or harangue - this would turn people
   off of me, and by extension, the message!
2. I try to live up to Jesus expectations for his followers. I often
   fail, but try not to be discouraged, but try to get up and keep trying.
   I try to SHOW others what being a follower of Jesus means in everyday
   practical living, and hope (and pray) that they find something compelling
   in it. The Bible calls it “being a light to the world”.
3. When others are interested in hearing about it - and I try to be
   sensitive to when this is - I give them the information, the facts, the
   arguments, etc., But only when I think that they are interested in
   hearing about it!
4. I try to depend on God as he has asked me to.

Please also note that I am not the original author of this post that you
are replying to, so, in one sense, I have “stuck my oar in”.
I hope it was not inappropriate to do so..





\

Stephen Munnings
Software Developer
Corman Technologies Inc.
( but this post is NOT in his official capacity! ) i.e. standard
disclaimer!

Glenn Sherman

[Glenn_Sherman1]

“Stephen Munnings” <steve@cormantech.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1611408dee2d17749896ba@inn.qnx.com…

In article <9o7n62$j9j$> 1@inn.qnx.com> >, > mcharest@clipzinformatic.com
says…

Hi Stephen,

I will rearrange your post to make easier to express myself

Please also note that I am not the original author of this post that
you
are replying to, so, in one sense, I have “stuck my oar in”.
I hope it was not inappropriate to do so..


IMHO it was very appropriate, that’s the whole point of this whole
threads
isn’t it, share ideas and opinions.

Good

Please don’t take my responses as “preaching” in that sense that I am
angry with you for not believing what I do..

For your own confort, I am not.

Good

God had His hand on the formation of this nation and I pray that God
will
continue to bless America.

What makes you thing he does?

There is some evidence to suggest that He has in the past.

Please clarify?


I believe that God has blessed America (U.S.) in material ways by making
her a strong and rich nation. I believe that this is a consequence of
both natural and supernatural influences.
Natural influences: When a nation (in general) follows the guidelines
for conduct that the Creator has laid out in his “Guidebook for the Human
Race” (the Bible), then the natural consequence(influence) is that that
nation prospers (in many ways). I believe that it is fairly evident that
this has hapened with U.S.A
Supernatural influences: God’s intervention in a special way. There are
probably evidences of this too, but this is harder to argue, and I have
no particular instances to mention. However, if you do not believe that
the US (and to a similar extent Canada) have been blessed by the natural
influences, then it more or less only leaves the supernatural influences.
Either way, I believe that the propserity of U.S.A. is a sign of God’s
blessing - whether is is really deserved or not. Of course, if you do
not believe in punishment, do you really believe that anybody deserves
rewards or blessing - they are the two sides of the same coin.

(This covers past to the present)



I also pray that God will bless this entire world.

What make he hasn’t already done so?


I believe (strongly) that He has. The request is that He will do so
some
more.


The original phrase used “will” which I understood (with my non native
english) as “in the futur”. While the previous sentence used present
tense when refering to US.


O.K. This is maybe a little language confusion.
The original statment does refer to the future. It is however, neutral
with regards to the past - it does not imply that God has not blessed the
rest of the world, and it does not imply that God has - it just doesn’t
say.
For you to reply “What make he hasn’t already done so?” suggests to me
that you think that the original statement indicates that God has not
blessed this entire world. I do not believe that the original speaker
intended to imply that. Certainly, I did not read that into the
statement.

(Properly - What makes you think that He hasn’t already done so - at
least that is how I read it)

• I know very little people that will ask themselves if they
  have possibly done something wrong after receving a slap
  in the face.

• Describe God’s current feeling

I can not presume to know God’s current feeling, but from what I
know
of him, I would say that he is very sad.

I don’t think he his.

Why do you not think so? God (of the Bible) tells us that He feels
our
hurts, and wants to comfort us and strengthen us.


Because in the grand scale of things this is nothing, nothing to even
worry about. Stars explodes possibly destroying whole planet and
billion of living things. Are you sad about unknowingly killint ants?
I would assume not. God is perfect and is all , as such this events
fits in
the
perfect scheme he created, why would he be sad about this.
He created it!


A great argument, and one often bought up!
However, God (as revealed in the Bible, at least) takes a very keen and
personal interest in each and every one of us!
I am not sad about unknowingly killing ants - that is because I do not
have the unlimited capacity to understand and care for each one. I only
have the capacity to somewhat understand and care for a very few people
personally. I do not feel sad in a direct sense about anybody killed in
the WTC - I did not know any of them. I feel very sad in an indirect way
about those lives lost, and the lives affected by them.
God, however, as a truly infinite being does have the capacity to
understand and care about each and every one of us! The Bible (if you
accept it as an authority) even tells us so! It even goes on to indicate
that God cares about individual birds.

God is perfect, but would you consider a being perfect if he/she/it could
not empathize with another being’s pain?

The question of how a perfect God could allow such suffering also comes
up. That makes for a long and involved discussion! I don’t have time to
cover that one! The short (and probably unsatisfactory for many) answer
is that God gave each one of us an enormously valuable gift: free choice.
It was so important for Him to give us true free choice that He even
accepts the consequence that we can (and do) use it for evil at times.
It was as a result of the excercise of this free choice (for evil) that
suffering and death came for us.



God sent his only Son into this
world so that ALL people would inherit eternal life.

We are all His creation - we are all the same in His eyes.
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans
3:23)

“Fall short of the glory of God”? Funny I always assume he had
no expectation.


I guess that is why He had to tell us (in His Word) that He did indeed
have expectations for us!

I think that what ever happens in the universe is a result of
his expectation.


So, you do not believe that you have the freedom (given by God) to choose
to do or not to do many actions? That you have the choice to do good or
bad things? That God has made you a puppet, and that everything you do
has been “carved in stone” and you cannot change anything?


God doesn’t punish, why should we?


God does indeed punish! He may delay the punishment, and He may find
a
willing and worthy substitute (Jesus - also God) to take your
punishment
for you, but He punishes! Both on a personal and national level.

That I TOTALY disagree with, to punish you need some sort of value
system
which I’m sure he doesn’t have as he is ALL value systems. I’m convince
this punishing thingy is man made, fear is control and that is what
religion
is all about in most cases.

Mario,
I agree with you. Religion is man’s attempt to reach God.
Christianity, through the person of Jesus Christ, is God’s search for man.

I once heard someone say that religion is the devil’s attempt to keep
man from God.

Christianity is a relationship with the living God.

Hmmmm! I agree that some men have used religion as a means of fear and
control. However, I strongly disagree that that is what (true) religion
is all about! As to value systems, again we have differing views!
I do NOT think that God is ALL value systems - I think that a “value
system” is something created by God, and he not only created only one
value system, but that He Himself, has decided to abide by it Himself
(voluntarily).
I believe that he created the absolute best value system possible, and
has revealed to us the major structure of the system, and how to do our
best to follow it.
I believe that it is based on ABSOLUTE fairness to all! Equity and
justice in their full glory (and fearsome strength)
I believe that making up our own “value systems” is simply an activity
which we do because we “are made in God’s image” and when we wish to
become “our own God” which the Bible tells us is a common (but wrong)
practice.

One of the most awesome things about God (to me personally) is that He
is
a God of ABSOLUTE justice and truth - he will not “whitewash” any
wrondgdoing, but will hold all responsible for all of their unjust
acts.
BUT - and an enormous but - He has found a way to satisfy those
requirements and still be able to show mercy and forgiveness to all
(who
will accept it).

Everybody is forgiven since there is nothing to forgive.
Dinausors have been obliterated. Who should be
forgiven for that? Again I beleive this is a man made
concept (thus in some way created by god)


What you are stating here is that you do not believe in the value system
revealed in the Bible.
I happen to believe in the value system revealed to us by God.
As to the dinosaurs, what relevance do they have to this topic. Nobody
is even sure just how they were obliterated..


sacrificed to pay for the sins of man (His creation).


sins? Based on who’s authority? Sins is IMHO a man
made concept to induce fear and to control. I don’t
beleive their is such a thing as sin.


Isn’t this a silly question (if you think about it)?
Obviously by God’s authority (as revealed in his Word).
You may not recognize the authority - and you have free will, and
therefore the right to decide not to accept this as authority, but
surely
it is clear that the writer, at least, has implied that this is his
authority?

That’s the point; various religion have various concept of sins.
I am not ready to accept that one of these religion is THE religion,
hence in my view there can not be ONE concept of sins. If there
is multiple concept of sins how would god deal with that? Simple
he doesn’t only man deal with that.

To be forgiven means you would have to judged, I’m surely hope
god is way way beyong judging.

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
has
eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to
life.
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead
will hear
the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the
Father has
life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And
he has
given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. (John 5:24-27)

It says right here in John 5:27 that he judges.

What makes you think that judging is a bad thing?
(You make judgements - in the same meaning of the word - every day as you
write programs. Is this good coding practice, bad practice? Should I
use an array or 4 seperate variables? )
The often misused biblical injunction “judge not so that you will not be
judged”, does not indicate that judging is wrong, merely to be used
wisely indeed.
The Bible states that “revenge is mine says the Lord”.
I believe it is because we distort and misuse revenge and punishment (we
are not totally fair about it) that we must be extremely careful in doing
it, and leave the excercise of judgment to God.

I beleive in the scale of evolution from 0-100 we are at probably
5. I’m hope we will grow beyond judging, beyond fear, beyond
violence, beyond sins, beyond our very limited self. I hope
will become God, and I would sure hope God isn’t one to judge,
to define what sins are, cause then men would be not better then
what we am today.
one


I understand your belief. It does differ considerably from mine!
However, I believe that even in religious things, we must be aware of
what reality is, and not base our thinking and actions on wishful
thinking!
You are “hoping” this and “hoping” that… nice ideas, but still just
“hoping”.
I base my beliefs on what I beleive to be the revealed reality. Revealed
to us from the Creator who made not only us, but the entire universe in
all its complexity.
I approach my “religion” in much the same way I approach my Software
Development. Do research, find out the facts, act in the light of those
facts.
I do not think that “religion” is a seperate realm where “what we wish
makes it so” or “if you wish hard enough, it will happen”, or even “all
ways lead to God”.. Unfortunately, I do not believe that those thoughts
match the reality of the situation, and those mistaken will face negative
consequences (as do all victims of con games and scams)…


The finishing touch;

One thing I’m very concious about is that this is MY reality and that
I’m sure it’s wrong. 10 years ago this is not what I was saying and
in 10 years from now I’d probably change my mind as well. God
will be something else for me. In fact I have no problem with
totaly redefining what God is, even it’s existence. I feel there
are billions of truth out there, all of them being as good as any other.
I’m trying to respect them all. Not relying on any of these thruth
to be THE thruth give me a sense of freedom .



You put “religion” in a seperate “cubicle” from the rest of your life.
You do not approach programming saying - there are billions of truths out
there, all of them being as good as any other.
You would not believe that IBM PC’s have 47 bit general registers - that
is just simply not the truth! There are many truths about Computers,
Programming, concrete things, and Life, but there are many lies too!
And truths do NOT contradict each other! When things contradict, there
is some untruth in there somewhere!

If you understand and follow this reasoning, then the “religion” of
following Jesus is in contradiction with the idea that “all religions are
valid”. Jesus states that he is “THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE”.
(And the definite singular article - implying the only way, the only
truth, and the only life - is very much intended! It only makes sense in
the context, where the disciples are somewhat grappling with this very
question!)

This means that you rationally have no option but to conclude that “not
all religions can be as good as any other”.
If you wish to make that statement, then you must at the very least
consign to a lower place those religions that state that that is not so!
They contradict your belief, how can you consider them “truth”?
(Christianity, Islam, Orthodox Judeaism, and many more)

When you say “God will be something else for me” is this a statement that
you will be searching for whatever God may be, or that you (as God in one
sense) will decide for yourself what God best suits you at that moment?

I love sharing my views with other, cause I need other to share
theirs, it helps me choose/refine/define where i want my thruth to go.


I too enjoy this activity, and I would not be going on and on about this
subject, unless I thought that you really did want to hear my thoughts!


Actually as I type this, I’m REALLY asking myself if you could be
right. I know you could, but so could I, so could we all…


Well, that is a healthy position, and one that should be present in at
least one stage of a person’s life. One should not simply blindly accept
ones beliefs but should have well thought out reasons for them.

–
Stephen Munnings
Software Developer
Corman Technologies Inc.

[Glenn_Sherman1]

“Mario Charest” <mcharest@clipzinformatic.com> wrote in message
news:9o831e$q5o$1@inn.qnx.com…

“Stephen Munnings” <> steve@cormantech.com> > wrote in message
news:> MPG.1611408dee2d17749896ba@inn.qnx.com> …
In article <9o7n62$j9j$> 1@inn.qnx.com> >, > mcharest@clipzinformatic.com
says…

• big snip -

Jesus states that he is “THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE”.

Well there is another guy that said the same, who’s right. They
all layed out different rules ( man interpreted differenlty
what each of them god’s representative said).

But, the other guys who said it are still dead.
Jesus is the only one who died and rose again.
If any others could do the same, we might have a problem

• with Chirtianity - but we don’t

Yes he could be,
(And the definite singular article - implying the only way, the only
truth, and the only life - is very much intended! It only makes sense
in
the context, where the disciples are somewhat grappling with this very
question!)

This means that you rationally have no option but to conclude that “not
all religions can be as good as any other”.

I’m not sure about about this but I’d say yes. I’ll clarify (although
I’m quite confuse myself > > ) Some religions are probably better then
others, it all depends where you want to go. But i beleive “other
religions”
serves a purpuse hence they are good as well.

If you wish to make that statement, then you must at the very least
consign to a lower place those religions that state that that is not so!

No I don’t

ALL religions are the same. Christianity is NOT a religion.
(see my other post.)
Jesus didn’t say He came to establish another religion. He came to
give us the abundant life.

They contradict your belief, how can you consider them “truth”?
(Christianity, Islam, Orthodox Judeaism, and many more)


I can’t explain it, I don’t know out to express or phrase this emotion.
Let’s say I won’t put down ANY of them cause they have the potential
to be the truth.


When you say “God will be something else for me” is this a statement
that
you will be searching for whatever God may be, or that you (as God in
one
sense) will decide for yourself what God best suits you at that moment?


Both. My current definition of God doesn’t suits me at all, but
better then it use to. I’m frustrated by my own limitation at
understanding a concept such as God. I’m just not willing to
use the bible as my only reference.

I guess people that don’t beleive in any God are having a laught at the
moment, lol!
I have a friend who doesn’t beleive in any type of God makes up for
interesting
discussion.
\

[Stephen_Munnings]

In article <3BA791E2.C46910D7@s.com>, a@s.com says…

Stephen Munnings wrote:
[ clip ..]
Very untrue! History teaches us general lessons - the history of Israel is very
instructive on what happens when a nation leaves God.
[clip ..]

Stephen, please tell me that this is not your serious opinion !!

Hi Armin.
Sorry, that is what I believe is the truth. It doesn’t matter that it is
not politically correct. Truth is truth. (And this is what I believe to
be the truth - in other words - accurate historical fact)

If (for some bizarre reason) it became politically incorrect to claim
that “African Americans” have darker skin (in general) than a Caucasian
population, would it change the facts?

If the general consensus was that fetuses are not human beings (but in
actual fact were human beings, contrary to popular opinion), would that
make abortion “not murder”?? (I will not go into the argument deeply
here, except to say that I believe that they ARE human beings, and that
abortion is killing a human. I also understand that if one is convinced
that they are not human beings - that abortion becomes acceptable. This
is the crucial turning point of the pro life and pro choice arguments.)

If the general population felt that Jews were somehow subhuman or
inferior, and worthy of horrible treatment, would it make it any less
right to speak out against such treatment? It is politically correct to
say no, right now, but in Hitler’s Third Reich, it was not!

If (as one scientific study concluded - I am not sure how good a study it
was) Oriental people have a slightly higher intelligence in general than
other population groups, does the fact that it is against popular opinion
make it not so? Should such a conclusion be thrown out because it is not
politically correct, or should the study be evaluated to see how good it
is, and then go from there? (Note that I am not saying that this study
was necessarily a good one.) But I was appalled that the public decried
the study on the basis of “racial predjudice” rather than on whether it
was properly conducted or not. Surely scientists are supposed to be
looking for facts (truth) regardless of whether their conclusions are
politically popular ot not?

I’m very astonished to read in that thread such nationalistic colored
religious fundamentalism =:-/

Well, if it will help you any, I am NOT Jewish. So I am not saying
this about myself, but about others. And it does not affect the way I
treat Jews and non-Jews to any great extent. I believe that we are all
God’s people, and that all are extremely important in God’s eyes. It is
just that I believe that for some reason God chose the Jewish race to
have a special relationship with Him. (And according to my Bible, it was
NOT because they were already special in any way, except that God decided
to choose them!)
The narratives in the books of Judges, Samuel, Chronicles, and Kings tell
many times of Israel leaving God, being judged, and returning
(temporarily) to God.

I am aware that this view is not a popular one, but I believe it to be
fact!
I also am aware that having this view is sometimes used as an excuse for
inexcusable behaviour!
Please don’t expect me to condone unfair behaviour by any group just on
the basis of being “God’s chosen people”. I am well aware that this is a
responsibility more than it is a license to do whatever one wants!

But, also do not expect me to throw out what I believe to be the truth,
simply because it happens to be an unpopular opinion!

I am sorry that “nationalistic colored religious fundamentalism” has
become such a nasty idea! I think it is because it once was considered a
good idea, and then was used as a “cover” for a lot of hideous
activities.
I am proud to be a religious fundamentalist! But I am not proud of what
those words have come to mean to a lot of people!
It probably does not mean the same things to me as it does to you.
The popular idea is that religious fundamentalists are narrow-minded,
cannot converse rationally, and stubbornly and blindly hold to archaic
and thoroughly discredited views! How convenenient for those that have
no use for a moral absolute! So that they can sway opinion in any way
that they want!
(I am not accusing you of being one of those. I do know that they exist,
however)

I may not always agree with you, but I can still reason. I can see the
basis for your arguments, even if I do not agree with your conclusions.
I do not make up my mind in the absense of any evidence, and I view with
a great deal of suspicion things that “are so because everybody thinks
that they are”. Some of them really are so, many are not.
Based on personality tests I have taken, I am an extremely “objective”
person, not a blind follower (of any persuasion).
I have reasons for reaching my conclusions, and can share them with you
if you happen to be interested. I do not expect that you will agree with
me, but you will see that I have reasons for what I believe - it is not
a blind belief!

We live in a world of concrete absolutes (with a great deal of
complexity), yet, somehow, when it comes to moral, religious, or
spiritual things, it becomes very unpopular to be on a firm footing!
(in other words to be sure of anything!) All MUST be relative - so that
anything can be changed as the leaders of popular opinion dictate!

Armin

\

–
Stephen Munnings
Software Developer
Corman Technologies Inc.

[Jutta_Steinhoff1]

Igor Kovalenko wrote:

Jim Douglas wrote:

I have a few salient points that are derived from the UK media. I put them
forward for discussion. They are not my views…

1. Only around 7% of the US population has passports. The US media devotes
   such a disproportionate time/space to domestic news that world news is
   virtually excluded. Ergo the US population is, in general, ignorant of world
   affairs. It’s not surprising they can’t comprehend why anyone has a motive
   for attacking them.

Problem is not only with news coverage.

Oh yes, I spent the last week in the US and was happy to get additional
information via non-american web-media or at phone. After being back
in Germany I enjoy much more our European “open, critical, informative
and global News culture”

We had a lot of serious discussions last week and missing historical
and geographical background is always amazing for me…

I was really shoked when figured
how do they teach geography in schools. To say it is US-centric would
be a huge understatement.

Hmm.. no surprise for me after a daughter spent a year at an US high
school…

Ignorance of history and getting reduced or filtered information let
people live in their own reallity and often being proud on anything
what’s stupid. Yes, and waving flags (emotions) for missing words or
real
arguments makes blind.

My hope is that international exchange and internet communication under
the young generations at least will lead to more information,
understanding and tolerance. Hopefully all are recognizing that we are
living on one and the same globe.

Reading diagonal the “war thread” I’m sometimes surprised about
arrogance. Whatever name for god in which religion or who ever thinks to
have an elite position for being blessed, history shows enough examples
for abuse of religion to fight in any name of god.

I hope now on an intelligent and effective fight against terrorismn and
not to blind action with bombing a land which is already physically
disturbed.

BTW, I was shocked that the ‘new’ US security on airports is a joke
(only blind action), they have still to learn much from other countries.

Jutta

[Stephen_Munnings]

In article <9o831e$q5o$1@inn.qnx.com>, mcharest@clipzinformatic.com
says…
<Warning: a lot snipped here - posts becoming too big>

What makes you thing he does?

There is some evidence to suggest that He has in the past.

Please clarify?


I believe that God has blessed America (U.S.) in material ways by making
her a strong and rich nation. I believe that this is a consequence of
both natural and supernatural influences.

Natural influences: When a nation (in general) follows the guidelines
for conduct that the Creator has laid out in his “Guidebook for the Human
Race” (the Bible), then the natural consequence(influence) is that that
nation prospers (in many ways). I believe that it is fairly evident that
this has hapened with U.S.A

I don’t see it that way. I think and hope people are blessed equally not
depending
on what they have done nor on what their government does… What is evident
in
US and other country alike, is they have gain wealth and material. I think
a hunter that catches an antilope is as blessed as you and me.

I understand. There is some basis for that (even in my beliefs).

The Bible indicates that there are many blessings that He gives to the
“just and the unjust” alike.
However, He also confers “special” blessings on individuals and nations.
This is usually rather subjective - in other words you are blessed when
you feel blessed - because usually there is no other way to know if you
are getting a special blessing or not.
Or to put it another way. God gives blessings, but does not usually
share with us what type of blessing, on who, when, etc.,

Supernatural influences: God’s intervention in a special way. There are
probably evidences of this too, but this is harder to argue, and I have
no particular instances to mention. However, if you do not believe that
the US (and to a similar extent Canada) have been blessed by the natural
influences, then it more or less only leaves the supernatural influences.
Either way, I believe that the propserity of U.S.A. is a sign of God’s
blessing - whether is is really deserved or not.

I think its evolution.

I only have the capacity to somewhat understand and care for a very few
people
personally. I do not feel sad in a direct sense about anybody killed in
the WTC - I did not know any of them. I feel very sad in an indirect way
about those lives lost, and the lives affected by them.

Could be, but that also means he feels happiness for the people that
perpatrate this act.

I personally don’t think so. I think he feels sadness that they were so
misled caused themselves and others such great pain. In other words, I
think that he views them as victims in this situation also! (Victims of
propaganda, falsehoods, etc.)

God, however, as a truly infinite being does have the capacity to
understand and care about each and every one of us!

The Bible (if you accept it as an authority)

No I don’t

I understand - just explaining my view.



even tells us so! It even goes on to indicate that God cares about
individual birds.

God is perfect, but would you consider a being perfect if he/she/it could
not empathize with another being’s pain?

Can’t compute >

Yeah, a perfect being is at least as good as we can imagine! And then

much much better yet!

I believe that he created the absolute best value system possible, and
has revealed to us the major structure of the system, and how to do our
best to follow it.

Our brain is extremely limited, “the major structure of the system” is IMHO
a MAJOR overstatement. The system is far more complex, it is beyond
our comprehension. That system may include the human blowing itself
up.

Maybe I did not use the right words. I meant the “broad outlines” or the

skeleton. I agree that we are too limited to understand the entirety!

What you are stating here is that you do not believe in the value system
revealed in the Bible.

Hum I really don’t know, I would have to say that they only think
I’d care about is the love part.

So you don’t really care if people treat you (or your family) fairly or

not? (Or are you saying that the concept of “fairness” is not a “value
system” thing?)
(The love part is very important too!)

Hum I don’t judge, I evaluate, better or worse, not good and bad.
The feeling that it creates is very different.

Well the meaning of “judge” is to evaluate. Not even necessarily in

“value judgements”
It is perfectly good english for a teacher to say: “I would judge this
essay to be a better one that that one.”

The often misused biblical injunction “judge not so that you will not be
judged”, does not indicate that judging is wrong, merely to be used
wisely indeed.

That is one’s interpretation.

True enough.



The Bible states that “revenge is mine says the Lord”.

Man made.

You mean the Bible is man-made? I disagree, but (at least for now) that
is another topic.

I understand your belief. It does differ considerably from mine!

Isn’t it great >

Well, yes and no. Some disagreement is inevitable.
However, I feel sad about anybody who does not understand God’s truth.

However, I believe that even in religious things, we must be aware of
what reality is, and not base our thinking and actions on wishful
thinking!

Hang tight > > Want to talk about reality, here is what I think. I think
the Universe is a stage, a stage for God to play all the billions of
billions of
billions of billions of possible act and role.

You may think that. On what do you base that belief?



For all I know, I could be computer simulation, I could be a brains
hook up to some machine. I don’t think we can comprehend what
reality is, it’s a concept out of our reach.

I agree that “total reality” is currently beyond our grasp.

But you make do quite nicely with “day to day” reality, and we all
experience and share that reality for the most part.
If you apply the Occam’s Razor Principle, those other things are more
science fiction than reality.
(BTW - I love reading science fiction - very entertaining and many novel
ideas - I just don’t confuse it with reality)

You put “religion” in a seperate “cubicle” from the rest of your life.

Then is not what I mean. I don’t know about english, but where I come
from, the word religion is attach to an organisation of some sort, that
dictate what god is.

I create my own religion. I look at all that is out there and make it
up as I go along.

Is it possible that God intended to communicate with man, but that men
(in general) have subverted the process through “organizing religion” ?
Is it possible that he still communicates with sincere seekers after him?

When things contradict, there is some untruth in there somewhere!

This I don’t agree.

o.k. how would you put it?

Surely in a court of law, If I said I saw someone steal something, and he
denied it, you would be pretty sure that one of us was lying? The trick,
of course is to figure out who was lying..

If you understand and follow this reasoning, then the “religion” of
following Jesus is in contradiction with the idea that “all religions are
valid”.

Absolutely not, it means that you are right in persuing your own
religion.

Jesus states that he is “THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE”.

Well there is another guy that said the same, who’s right. They
all layed out different rules ( man interpreted differenlty
what each of them god’s representative said).

If you believe that, consider the historically documented fact of the

resurrection (coming back to life from the dead) as an indication of who
God pointed out to us as having the truth (being right)

This means that you rationally have no option but to conclude that “not
all religions can be as good as any other”.

I’m not sure about about this but I’d say yes. I’ll clarify (although
I’m quite confuse myself > > ) Some religions are probably better then
others, it all depends where you want to go. But i beleive “other
religions”
serves a purpuse hence they are good as well.

If you wish to make that statement, then you must at the very least
consign to a lower place those religions that state that that is not so!

No I don’t

Well, I meant in the sense of saying that some are better than others -

as you have conceeded just above.

They contradict your belief, how can you consider them “truth”?
(Christianity, Islam, Orthodox Judeaism, and many more)


I can’t explain it, I don’t know out to express or phrase this emotion.
Let’s say I won’t put down ANY of them cause they have the potential
to be the truth.

Wouldn’t it be nice to find out if one of them really was the truth,
rather than just having the potential?

When you say “God will be something else for me” is this a statement that
you will be searching for whatever God may be, or that you (as God in one
sense) will decide for yourself what God best suits you at that moment?


Both. My current definition of God doesn’t suits me at all, but
better then it use to. I’m frustrated by my own limitation at
understanding a concept such as God. I’m just not willing to
use the bible as my only reference.

Understandable! I don’t think we are able to fully understand God. And
I don’t believe that one should use the Bible as the only reference
without first being clear on why one should do that!

I guess people that don’t beleive in any God are having a laught at the
moment, lol!
I have a friend who doesn’t beleive in any type of God makes up for
interesting
discussion.

Oh, yeah, and probably being annoyed too! Those who decide not to care
about God are usually annoyed when the subject comes up.

\

Stephen Munnings
Software Developer
Corman Technologies Inc.

[Glenn_Sherman1]

“Armin” <a@s.com> wrote in message news:3BA791E2.C46910D7@s.com…

Stephen Munnings wrote:
[ clip ..]
Very untrue! History teaches us general lessons - the history of Israelis
very
instructive on what happens when a nation leaves God.
[clip ..]

Stephen, please tell me that this is not your serious opinion !!

I’m very astonished to read in that thread such nationalistic colored
religious fundamentalism =:-/

I don’t understand. Surely, you can see the same thing happening here in
the U.S.
As we continue to push God out of our country, we see more and more of the
devil’s
handiwork.
Kids killing kids in our schools.
Parents abandoning their families to do their own things.
People looking out for number one.
…

another question that came to me today.

Why is Hollywood shelving all of their action movies?
( I know the answer already. )
Why do they feel that it is in bad taste to show them?
Every day they show violence and murder in movies
and TV shows, but when questioned about that, they say
they are just “a mirror” for what is happening in the world today.
What is the difference?
( I am not saying that they shouldn’t shelve things now, just
that they should be doing more of it all the time.)

Armin

-Glenn Sherman

[Mitchell_Schoenbrun]

Previously, Mario Charest wrote in qdn.public.qnxrtp.advocacy:

Why G-d, instead of God?

Old habit. I was brought up Jewish. You do not find the
name of G-d i the Jewish bible, or anywhere else. Even
when praying, a phrase is substituted for the name of G-d.
I think the point is to not desicrate the name. Just a
habit, I can write GOD if I want to.

Mitchell Schoenbrun --------- maschoen@pobox.com

[Mitchell_Schoenbrun]

Previously, Igor Kovalenko wrote in qdn.public.qnxrtp.advocacy:

Guess because name the Lord shall not be mentioned in vain ;

That works for me.

Mitchell Schoenbrun --------- maschoen@pobox.com

[Mitchell_Schoenbrun]

Previously, Alain Choquet wrote in qdn.public.qnxrtp.advocacy:

Gravity is the weakest force yet the only one that matters on a sufficiently
large scale.

Gravity is only a force using the Neutonian model. In Einstein’s model,
all mass/engergy warps the shape of space/time. Objects “falling” toward
gravitational bodies are in reality following “straight” space/time lines
called geodesics.

The as yet incomplete unified (with Quantum [finally a connection] mechanics)
theory will probably have gravity mediated by the exchange of gravitons.


Mitchell Schoenbrun --------- maschoen@pobox.com

[Mitchell_Schoenbrun]

Previously, Stephen Munnings wrote in qdn.public.qnxrtp.advocacy:

There is some evidence to suggest that He has in the past. The prayer (or
request) is that He will in the future.

And the evidence is?

I guess that is why He had to tell us (in His Word) that He did indeed
have expectations for us!

What is the evidence that the Bible is the word of G-d?

Jesus made many hard requests of his followers. Not fully following them
is what has made a lot of people believe that “Christians are
hypocrites”. But, please remember - they are HARD to do!

Hard to avoid the Spanish Inquisition? Hard to avoid the Chrusades?

God does indeed punish! He may delay the punishment, and He may find a
willing and worthy substitute (Jesus - also God) to take your punishment
for you, but He punishes! Both on a personal and national level.

And the evidence is?

\

Mitchell Schoenbrun --------- maschoen@pobox.com