In article <9o8smq$as3$1@inn.qnx.com>, mcharest@nowayzinformatic.com
says…
Woops hit Send to fast:
I personally don’t think so. I think he feels sadness that they were so
misled caused themselves and others such great pain. In other words, I
think that he views them as victims in this situation also! (Victims of
propaganda, falsehoods, etc.)Have you ever consider that you may yourself be victim of propaganda?
That this whole bible and God thing is a hoaks? These people have
made choice based on the information that was given to them, I’m
100% positive they would be very difficult to convince to think
differently that is all they know. Just like it’s all you and I know.
I’m trying very hard to never assume that what I know is true,
hence I assume everything could be true or that nothing is true.I have considered this a great deal! I have not just blindly accepted my
beliefs! For a somewhat comprehensive treatment of this issue, I could
refer you to http://www.rae.org/bibref.html.
Warning! It is long, but I believe very good, and very logical.
I approve of trying to be sure of the truth, and not just assuming it!
God, however, as a truly infinite being does have the capacity to
understand and care about each and every one of us!The Bible (if you accept it as an authority)
No I don’t
I understand - just explaining my view.
And explaining mine, without being afraid to be shot in the back >And I won’t shoot you! I am enjoying this thread, and feel a
friendliness (even though we disagree) rather than antagonism!
even tells us so! It even goes on to indicate that God cares about
individual birds.God is perfect, but would you consider a being perfect if he/she/it
could
not empathize with another being’s pain?Can’t compute >
Yeah, a perfect being is at least as good as we can imagine! And then
much much better yet!I believe that he created the absolute best value system possible, and
has revealed to us the major structure of the system, and how to do
our
best to follow it.Our brain is extremely limited, “the major structure of the system” is
IMHO
a MAJOR overstatement. The system is far more complex, it is beyond
our comprehension. That system may include the human blowing itself
up.Maybe I did not use the right words. I meant the “broad outlines” or the
skeleton. I agree that we are too limited to understand the entirety!
I think we are too limited to even understand one of its part.
History shows that all that was know to be true as changed at
some point. Earth is round, stars aren’t spirit, women aren’t
witches (well not all of them, lol), universe was created in a week.
People have died defending that the earth was the center of the univers.
Imagine how stupid they would feel if you could bring them back to live
and tell them they killed for nothing (I don’t really think they have killed
for nothing, they have killed because this was part of the grand scheme).
I’m having a hard time thinking of myself as defending or beleiving
in something that will prove to be a distorted view.Evidences are pilling up that clarify the actual fact about many events
in our history, and thing usually are not how they were presented to us.
Actually, this is one of the evidences that the Bible is an authentic
revelation from God Himself! Surely if it were a product of man alone,
written centuries ago, it would contain many scientific myths as
assertions of fact! It in fact contains allusions that would have been
considered against common belief at the time. It refers to the earth as
being circular or spherical, for example!
What you are stating here is that you do not believe in the value
system
revealed in the Bible.Hum I really don’t know, I would have to say that they only think
I’d care about is the love part.So you don’t really care if people treat you (or your family) fairly or
not? (Or are you saying that the concept of “fairness” is not a “value
system” thing?)I’m not saying the bible doesn’t make sense in some cases, I don’t
really know the bible. I actually can’t read it, it’s tone drives me off.I will not use the bible as a refence to define was is fair or not.
Some of my definition may agree with some of what it says,
but it’s not my reference.(The love part is very important too!)
Hum I don’t judge, I evaluate, better or worse, not good and bad.
The feeling that it creates is very different.Well the meaning of “judge” is to evaluate. Not even necessarily in
“value judgements”
It is perfectly good english for a teacher to say: “I would judge this
essay to be a better one that that one.”
There is a difference to me. Better or worse means it’s a scale and
everything on that scale is good,like being smart or dumb, these is
nothing wrong with being dump.The often misused biblical injunction “judge not so that you will not
be
judged”, does not indicate that judging is wrong, merely to be used
wisely indeed.That is one’s interpretation.
True enough.
The Bible states that “revenge is mine says the Lord”.
Man made.
You mean the Bible is man-made? I disagree, but (at least for now) that
is another topic.
I understand your belief. It does differ considerably from mine!Isn’t it great >
Well, yes and no. Some disagreement is inevitable.
However, I feel sad about anybody who does not understand God’s truth.That’s my point, it’s not God’s truth, its your interpretation of the
reading of the bible (I’m oversimplifying). Other people
are reading the same book and have a totaly different
interpretation of its content and come up with a different
meaning of God. To say that this is God’s truth is putting
words in its mouth >
Well, it sorta clearly states that it is God’s truth!
(And on this point almost all agree. Those who do not believe it is the
truth discredit it on some other basis, but do not say that it does not
claim to be the truth!)
I agree that what I am telling you is my interpretation.
When I believe that a Pentium chip’s internal registers are 32 bits long,
that is also my interpretation of what the manual said. There is a
chance of error, particularly if the manual was not too clear!
(And in the case of the manual, there is even a possibility of an error
in the manual!)
There is also a chance that you do not understand what my interpretation
is when I tell it to you.
I also agree that other’s people’s interpretations can and will differ.
But truth is the truth.
And my belief is that the Bible is God’s revealed truth. How close to
(or how far from) the truth my interpretation is depends on how good my
interpretation is, not on whether the truth is there or not..
However, I believe that even in religious things, we must be aware of
what reality is, and not base our thinking and actions on wishful
thinking!Hang tight >
> Want to talk about reality, here is what I think. I
think
the Universe is a stage, a stage for God to play all the billions of
billions of
billions of billions of possible act and role.You may think that. On what do you base that belief?
That is the most logical explanation I could come up with
given my interpretation of the thing I see around me.I’ll try to explain the best I can:
Take a pen and look at it for a moment. What do you see?
A pen you might say, well you are not seeing a pen at all.
First what you perceive are photons of various wavelenght.
You only see a very very small fraction of the range available.
Other animal will perceive the pen totaly differently.
Then what you see is in essence chemical reaction in your
brain. Your perception of the pen, its presence its existance
is a small fraction of reality. Because of our scale sizewise,
we can’t see the fabric of the pen, its molecule, its atom.
You can touch it because of the spacing of your molecule.
If you where of different material you might be not
even be able to touch it or even see it. As we speak
particule are going through us without us know it.
Maybe these particul are part of a being that isn’t
aware of our presence. So all that surrounds us,
all that we define as ourself isn’t completely real,
only the perception is.
O.K. that all makes sense. Now, whether you believe in God, or in
evolution, does it not make sense that our perceptions are designed to
give us accurate (for our purposes) feedback on the environment around
us? Anything else is anti-survival. If you beleive in God, surely he
designed us to survive? And if you believe in evolution, is not survival
of the species the goal? We really have no choice but to depend on our
perceptions giving us an accurate (for practical purposes) description of
our environment.
This though occurs to me while viewing “The Matrix”,
when the boudist looking child says “Do not try to bend the
spoon as there is no spoon, instead it is you who must bend
around the spoon”. To me this was enlightment >I deeply beleive (for now at least) that their is in fact
no spoon…For all I know, I could be computer simulation, I could be a brains
hook up to some machine. I don’t think we can comprehend what
reality is, it’s a concept out of our reach.I agree that “total reality” is currently beyond our grasp.
But you make do quite nicely with “day to day” reality, and we all
experience and share that reality for the most part.If you apply the Occam’s Razor Principle, those other things
are more science fiction than reality.Saying the earth was round was probably science fiction as well.
And if science keeps “changing the facts”, how do we really know that the
earth is indeed round? (Don’t misread me, I believe it is round. But if
we never trust any of our “facts” even after examination, what can we
base our day to day life on?)
(BTW - I love reading science fiction - very entertaining and many novel
ideas - I just don’t confuse it with reality)
It’s not about confusion it’s about not denying that it possible.
What if Jesus was an Alien trying to give us a push in the
right direction. It’s a bold idea, but it cannot be 100%
unproven, hence it is remotely possible.Indeed, it is “remotely” possible. But it is either fact, or falsehood.
If it is important to know, one examines evidences, and comes to a
conclusion. A healthy mind set also requires that one re-examine
conclusions when new evidence becomes known that bears on the conclusion.
You put “religion” in a seperate “cubicle” from the rest of your life.
Then is not what I mean. I don’t know about english, but where I come
from, the word religion is attach to an organisation of some sort, that
dictate what god is.I create my own religion. I look at all that is out there and make it
up as I go along.
Is it possible that God intended to communicate with man, but that men
(in general) have subverted the process through “organizing religion” ?Since religion are organised by men that is what I thing happens.
“Religion” means different things to different people.
I have been using it in it’s broadest sense - the general concepts of
God<->man communication/knowledge..
Is it possible that he still communicates with sincere seekers after him?
Quite possible yes
And I, personally, believe it to be more than possible. I believe it to
be fact.
When things contradict, there is some untruth in there somewhere!
This I don’t agree.
o.k. how would you put it?
Surely in a court of law, If I said I saw someone steal something, and he
denied it, you would be pretty sure that one of us was lying? The trick,
of course is to figure out who was lying..
You have a good point. This may get out of hand here and too language
limited but:
Maybe that “theif” isn’t lying, maybe he thinks he took something he things
he deserved. Maybe he was poor and need it to feed his familly.
Maybe he stolel with the intention of returning. What we have is two
truths your and his. It’s all in the perception.Maybe I should have said "The real trick is finding out what the real
truth of the situation is."
If you understand and follow this reasoning, then the “religion” of
following Jesus is in contradiction with the idea that “all religions
are
valid”.Absolutely not, it means that you are right in persuing your own
religion.Jesus states that he is “THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE”.
Well there is another guy that said the same, who’s right. They
all layed out different rules ( man interpreted differenlty
what each of them god’s representative said).If you believe that, consider the historically documented fact of the
resurrection (coming back to life from the dead) as an indication of who
God pointed out to us as having the truth (being right)Other people have come back from the dead. Actually
some think he never died (I’ve read somewhere
their might be evidence leading to that conclusion)
Of course there are theories to this effect. Examining the evidence does
not (in my mind) support these theories. And, yes, other people have
been raised from the dead, but how many of them foretold (prophecied) it
of themselves, and indicated that it would be a mark of God’s
authentication of the message and messenger?
This means that you rationally have no option but to conclude that
“not
all religions can be as good as any other”.I’m not sure about about this but I’d say yes. I’ll clarify (although
I’m quite confuse myself >
others, it all depends where you want to go. But i beleive “other
religions”
serves a purpuse hence they are good as well.If you wish to make that statement, then you must at the very least
consign to a lower place those religions that state that that is not
so!No I don’t
Well, I meant in the sense of saying that some are better than others -
as you have conceeded just above.They contradict your belief, how can you consider them “truth”?
(Christianity, Islam, Orthodox Judeaism, and many more)
I can’t explain it, I don’t know out to express or phrase this emotion.
Let’s say I won’t put down ANY of them cause they have the potential
to be the truth.
Wouldn’t it be nice to find out if one of them really was the truth,
rather than just having the potential?
Maybe, however I’m not prepare to say which one. It might
also be none of them.
Keep looking, then Mario. I am willing to present what I believe to be
facts. But, ultimately, you must decide for yourself. Everyone must!
I guess people that don’t beleive in any God are having a laught at the
moment, lol!
I have a friend who doesn’t beleive in any type of God makes up for
interesting
discussion.
Oh, yeah, and probably being annoyed too! Those who decide not to care
about God are usually annoyed when the subject comes up.Not to care, hum don’t agree with that either. It’s not that they don’t
care about God its that they don’t beleive in its existence, very
different.
I probably did not make myself clear enough. I did not mean to say that
all people that do not believe in God would be annoyed. Only that many
of those that do not believe in God have decided not to care, and those
would be the ones annoyed!
\
Stephen Munnings
Software Developer
Corman Technologies Inc.
