War

“Miguel Simon” <simon@ou.edu> wrote in message
news:3BA20EA7.F0355298@ou.edu

A coward is a person that does not put a name/face behind their actions
with the intent of fleing responsibility and avoid possible
confrontation in an open way.

One coud disagree with this. Another name for this tactic is ‘guerilla
warfare’, fashionable term these days. It used to be called ‘partisan
warfare’. Such tactics has little to do with cowardness, when used by
someone who’s obviously weaker than their adversary. Russian, yugoslavian,
polish, french and other partisans have inflicted quite a lot of damage to
Hitler, helping allies to win the WWII. They could not afford to show their
face however. Would you call them ‘cowards’?

Moreover, a coward is a person that hurts
innocent people to get their way.

Yes, that’d be more appropriate definition.

For example, the Jap. attack to Pearl
Harbor was wrong and it was an infamy, but you could argue that it was
not a coward act (i.e. the soldiers did not know that war had not been
declared yet).

It is irrelevant what soldiers knew about declaration of war. They were
attacking military installation quite capable of defending itself. Each of
them knew for certain that he could potentially die, so they weren’t cowards
indeed. Americans already had radar system in place and if they did not
ignore the warning it gave them, they’d have had a fair chance.

  • Igor

Previously, Gary Dike wrote in qdn.public.qnxrtp.advocacy:


It is sickening to say the least. I think the most sickening images I’ve
seen is the Palestinians celebrating in the streets.

Ok, I’m a US citizen. I’m completely sickened by the recent
events. I don’t doubt that some Palestinians are happy about
what happened and are celebrating. Now a question. Have you
noticed that the exact same clip of cheering Palestinians
has been played over and over. I noticed that most of the
cheering is from children. I’ve seen less than a dozen
adults. So my question is, what is the point of playing this
over and over on the media? Are we to conclude something
about all or most Palestinians from the behavior of children
and a handful of adults. The US press is always arguing about
how we need balance in reporting. That seems to mean one
centrist and one rightist. Where are the interviews with
Palestinians who abhor violence. I heard one brief comment
from Arafat, and that was all.



Mitchell Schoenbrun --------- maschoen@pobox.com

In article <3BA20EA7.F0355298@ou.edu>, simon@ou.edu says…

Hi…

“Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS)” wrote:

“Kevin Stallard” <> kevin@robots.flyingrobots.fly> .> wrote in message
news:9nntsh$naa$> 1@inn.qnx.com> …
You DO NOT let cowards get away with garbage like this with out reprisal.
The only problem Isreal has is that they are always “reigned in” by the
U.S.
and others. They should be unleashed. Terrorisom SHOULD NOT and I
repreat
SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED. It should be crushed.

I can think of a thousand negitive adjectives that I would call the people
that did this. Most of them I wouldn’t repeat in polite company.

Let me key in on a word that you’ve used and many others have used in the
last 30 odd hours.

These people have been called cowards. That, I don’t get.

A coward is a person that does not put a name/face behind their actions
with the intent of fleing responsibility and avoid possible
confrontation in an open way. Moreover, a coward is a person that hurts
innocent people to get their way. For example, the Jap. attack to Pearl
Harbor was wrong and it was an infamy, but you could argue that it was
not a coward act (i.e. the soldiers did not know that war had not been
declared yet).

Miguel.

I think that some aspects of the attacks may be “cowardly”, but the

definition of cowardly would be more like “lacking in courage”.
I agree with Mitch - cowardly is one adjective that should not have been
used - at least not of those that actually carried out the attack.
If if was meant to describe those who sent out others to do the dirty
work, then it might be appropriate.
There are more than enough negative adjectives that accurately portray
what kind of actions those were - they should not be using inaccurate
ones in public statements!
(But this is all pretty picky stuff in comparison to the enormity of the
horror which occurred!)


I have a daughter that love with all of my heart. But I’ve posed the
question to myself many times: If I had to actually risk my life to save
her’s, would I? I can’t honestly swear that I would. I hope that if it
ever were necessary, that I would. I hope even more that it will never be
necessary. But I can’t swear that I would absolutely risk loosing my life
for her’s. OK. So I’m quick to say that maybe I’m a coward, but at least
an honest coward.

But here there are people that sacrificed their lives for something that
they believed in. Of course what they believed in is all screwed up. But
how can someone call them cowards?

NOTE: I’m not justifying what happened. Those people are )(^$#, ^&^(()%,
$))&^%$, and ^
&%(#()(&%&() ! ! ! I just can’t see calling them cowards.


Stephen Munnings
Software Developer
Corman Technologies Inc.

“Rennie Allen” <RAllen@csical.com> wrote in message
news:64F00D816A85D51198390050046F80C9C687@exchangecal.hq.csical.com

Thanks for sharing that with us, and thanks for a well timed, and
(evidently) provocative discussion., I hoped it helped you decide.

Yes it did. I have to say I’m pretty impressed by everyone’s
attitude. This is a very sensitive subject and everyone stay ed
“civilise”. The way exchanges of ideas, thoughs, an opinion occurred
in this thread was examplary (given my own moral …) I wish I have the
chance to meet everyone of you one day, it would be an honor.

Igor: too bad we didn’t get a chance to talk last time we met (QNX 2000).
I think I was turned off by your “direct approach” and reputation, and you
didn’t
strike me as the kind of person I wanted to get acquinted with.
I regret that now… Not only because I agree with many of your statements,
but because it made be realize I had to see beyond cultural differences,
(Russians aren’t so bad after all, LOL!!! )

I really wasn’t sure if my initial post was a good idea at the time,
but i’m really happy I overcame my fear :wink: I think I’ve grown
a bit wiser (or less stupid depending how you see it) because
of everyone’s contribution.


-----Original Message-----
From: Mario Charest [mailto:> mcharest@nowayzinformatic.com> ]
Posted At: Thursday, September 13, 2001 9:31 AM
Posted To: advocacy
Conversation: War
Subject: Re: War



“Rennie Allen” <> RAllen@csical.com> > wrote in message
news:> 64F00D816A85D51198390050046F80C9BC85@exchangecal.hq.csical.com> …
So, Mario, after this discussion (and the events of the past few
days),
what is your decision ? I think the many people who contributed to
this
discussion would be interested in knowing.

I will sell
\

Moreover, a coward is a person that hurts
innocent people to get their way.

Ah, like Hiroshima… gotcha…

Ok, I’m a US citizen. I’m completely sickened by the recent
events. I don’t doubt that some Palestinians are happy about
what happened and are celebrating. Now a question. Have you
noticed that the exact same clip of cheering Palestinians
has been played over and over.

Yes, the thought had crossed my mind. The fact that ANYONE celebrates is
abhoring…

Also there are recent “rumours” that AP has a clip of a MUCH larger croud
cheering, including police officers… but aren’t releasing them because
they have “been threatened”. Take that for what you will, of course.

Along these lines, Eric Hoffer wrote an interesting book “The True
Believer” back in the fifties. The book talks about the makeup and
behavior of fanatics. Fanatics are a quite different breed from
psychopaths, partisans, programmers … The late attackers should
be classed as fanatics, in my view.

Fanatics do not act on their own goals or beliefs. They are people
who in Hoffer’s view, lack a purpose to their lives and turn to a
charismatic leader to fill that void. He cites as examples,
devout German communists, who in the 1930s became equally devout
fascists. Hitler, apparently, was more appealing than Stalin. The
political systems they aligned with had nothing to do with their
beliefs. The leader’s goals become their’s. They will literally
die for him.

A guerilla is most likely not a fanatic (and I agree not a coward).
But it’s not useful to call the recent attackers cowards; they act
out of an allegiance that makes no sense to us. To call their
leader a coward, on the other hand, makes very good sense.

These disaffected souls would be objects of pity or scorn had they
not become such monstrous agents. Their leader, now he’s the one who
deserves our attention! If he is squashed, his followers are
headless (until they find another to follow). I am of the impression
that there are not other suitable candidates that have the same
inclinations as their current leader. In fact, fanatics such as
these are as likely to align with a religious leader (remember
Jonestown, and those people in San Diego a few years back who
took poison to get to the mothership).

BTW, I am not saying these people aren’t very dangerous or that
they should be ignored. I just don’t think it’s useful to focus
our anger on them.

Richard

Igor Kovalenko wrote:

“Miguel Simon” <> simon@ou.edu> > wrote in message
news:> 3BA20EA7.F0355298@ou.edu> …

A coward is a person that does not put a name/face behind their actions
with the intent of fleing responsibility and avoid possible
confrontation in an open way.

One coud disagree with this. Another name for this tactic is ‘guerilla
warfare’, fashionable term these days. It used to be called ‘partisan
warfare’. Such tactics has little to do with cowardness, when used by
someone who’s obviously weaker than their adversary. Russian, yugoslavian,
polish, french and other partisans have inflicted quite a lot of damage to
Hitler, helping allies to win the WWII. They could not afford to show their
face however. Would you call them ‘cowards’?

Moreover, a coward is a person that hurts
innocent people to get their way.

Yes, that’d be more appropriate definition.

For example, the Jap. attack to Pearl
Harbor was wrong and it was an infamy, but you could argue that it was
not a coward act (i.e. the soldiers did not know that war had not been
declared yet).

It is irrelevant what soldiers knew about declaration of war. They were
attacking military installation quite capable of defending itself. Each of
them knew for certain that he could potentially die, so they weren’t cowards
indeed. Americans already had radar system in place and if they did not
ignore the warning it gave them, they’d have had a fair chance.

  • Igor

Igor Kovalenko wrote:

Yugoslavia was defenseless. Not only it was smaller and weaker, it was also
denied right to import weapons and fuel which it could use for self defense.
May be its regime was guilty of atrocities, but you can’t deny that when you
drop a bomb on civilian installation there is a chance of killing innocent
people. Supersophisticated US military also managed to hit chineese embassy.
Did those people deserve to die?

You also can’t deny there are dual standards in US foreign policy. Why does
not US bomb Israel for systematic openly admitted killings of palestinians?
Of course those palestinians aren’t angels and they do kill Israelis, but it
is Israel who occupies their land and denies their right for their own
state, isn’t it? And kosovars were not exactly angels either, they did
provoke serbs and commited atrocities too, so may be Milosevich had right to
establish ‘policy of assasinations’ like Israel does?

Another example, think about Chechnya problem. First russian military action
was triggered by local authorities imposing ‘Islam law’ and practicing
things like systematic kidnappings of people for ransom and showcasing heads
of decapitated people on central square of the capital. Then those people
hijacked hospital in Russia and killed hundreds of helpless patients in
cold blood. They also blew residential buildings in Moscow which caused
hundreds of deaths. They hijacked numerous planes and buses. However US
was very concerned about Russia denying their rights and members of US
congress accepted delegation of rebels. When Russia was talking about
international terrorism (there are foreign mercenaries in Chechnya)
commiting an act of war against it, words practically fell on deaf ears of
western leaders.

Does not that look at least a little dual-standard?

Maybe a very little. The publicly stated rational is not the real
one. Israel is a valuable ally. Serbia was on a course that might
make life difficult for us, and the bombing looked like an easy way
to calm things down.
Yes, that’s a cynical comment, and there are lot of Westerners who
supported our excursion out of their sense of morality, but I
think that our lack of interest in the Congo shows our true basis.



This is the part I don’t get… what is “showing off” in this respect ?


You can’t really get it unless you are capable of putting yourself into
‘their shoes’. Imagine yourself a kid in a class. There’s bunch of others,
but there one who just goes and goes and goes about how Great he is, how
he’s The Best, how Generous he is, how all of them are really in Debt to
him, how Important he is, how he’s an Example for all of them, how he should
keep them all under Control so they don’t dare to challenge his way of
life…

How popular you think he’d be among the crowd? Funny thing is, that is
actually understood by some americans too. I remember reading an article
related to the incident between US spy plane and chineese figher. It was
called something like ‘A nation which everyone loves to hate’. The author
apparently understood quite well why nearly everyone would love to hate US.
But then he told ‘it is okay with us, because we can kick everyone’s ass and
frankly, we like it that way’.

Sure, why not.

Indeed. One of our presidents recommended we "Walk softly, and carry a

big
stick." We seem at times to forget the “walk softly” bit. I don’t think
we
“show off” so much to control them as to protect the status quo here. We
don’t seem that eager to take over the world, although we don’t seem to
be
inclined to fret if the world bows to us. A fine difference perhaps.


Here’s an Eric Hoffer quote. I don’t know when he wrote this, but he
died
in 1983:
“The Americans are poor haters in international affairs because of their
innate feeling of superiority over all foreigners. An American’s hatred
for a fellow American…is far more virulent than any antipathy he can
work up against foreigners…Should Americans begin to hate foreigners
wholeheartedly, it will be an indication that they have lost confidence
in their own way of life.”

Keep in mind, Igor, you’re one of us now.

  • igor

What’s even more sadning is the paranoia toward arabic people.

While I’m not suprised, it is distressing.

There was some minor incident here in Montreal, cocktail molotov
thrown at a church. I guess that was to be expected, sigh.

Expected, unfortunately. Tolerated - hopefully never.

I honestly expect the world changed quite a bit on September 11th, and not
for the better. I don’t think things will ever return to the way they
were - and apparently the higher ups in the United States are nervous that
this was just a first wave. I really don’t think the sheer scope of what
really happened has yet sunk in - if that makes sense. When I heard what
happened - I honestly did not believe it. I had to go home and watch the TV
to see it for myself - and am still in amazement of the magnitude of this
attack, and what it truly means not only for America and by extension
Canada, but to the rest of the world.

Immigration policies will be tighter. Airport security will be MUCH
tighter. Air travel will decline. And the Americans WILL bomb someone - I
think this course of events is already pre-determined, much like the use of
the Atom bomb in WWII (a poor comparison, I know, and not really a
conversation/argument I wish to delve into).

I dunno - the next couple of months are going to be very interesting and
quite possibly scary.

“Richard R. Kramer” <rrkramer@kramer-smilko.com> wrote in message
news:3BA2B089.DB9B3FB1@kramer-smilko.com

Indeed. One of our presidents recommended we “Walk softly, and carry a
big
stick.” We seem at times to forget the “walk softly” bit. I don’t think
we
“show off” so much to control them as to protect the status quo here. We
don’t seem that eager to take over the world, although we don’t seem to
be
inclined to fret if the world bows to us. A fine difference perhaps.


Here’s an Eric Hoffer quote. I don’t know when he wrote this, but he
died
in 1983:
“The Americans are poor haters in international affairs because of their
innate feeling of superiority over all foreigners. An American’s hatred
for a fellow American…is far more virulent than any antipathy he can
work up against foreigners…Should Americans begin to hate foreigners
wholeheartedly, it will be an indication that they have lost confidence
in their own way of life.”

Keep in mind, Igor, you’re one of us now.

Not quite :wink:
Technically I am ‘legal alien’, lol.

I liked your quote. It could not be said better, I was getting there but did
not want to say the piece about ‘innate feeling of superiority’ myself. When
it is very obvious to any foreigner, not many americans will openly admit
it.

And I got a side note, illustrating american character. According to russian
sources, a team of couple hundreds trained and experienced rescuers along
with all needed equipment was offered to US by russian ‘ministry of
emergency’. Those are people with extensive record of saving survivors of
earthquakes. They were ready to board their own plane plane as soon as they
had ‘go’ from US. They were told ‘thanks, we will handle it ourselves’.

Guess they had reasons to decline the offer

  • igor

“Gary Dike” <gdikeNOSPAM@idirect.ca> wrote in message
news:9nu3un$f8n$1@nntp.qnx.com

Ok, I’m a US citizen. I’m completely sickened by the recent
events. I don’t doubt that some Palestinians are happy about
what happened and are celebrating. Now a question. Have you
noticed that the exact same clip of cheering Palestinians
has been played over and over.

Yes, the thought had crossed my mind. The fact that ANYONE celebrates is
abhoring…

Also there are recent “rumours” that AP has a clip of a MUCH larger croud
cheering, including police officers… but aren’t releasing them because
they have “been threatened”. Take that for what you will, of course.

What’s even more sadning is the paranoia toward arabic people.
There was some minor incident here in Montreal, cocktail molotov
thrown at a church. I guess that was to be expected, sigh.


\

Anyone interested in giving a new kick start to this thread,
I got a few ideas :wink: Anyone wanting to tell me to shut up
is welcome to do so.

  • Mario

I don’t think the Balkans is the motive behind the attack upon the
WTC… I
mean, really.

Yes, really; where exactly did I suggest that this was the motive behind
the attack ? I only suggested that the U.S. intervened in the Balkans
at a very high cost, with no strategic interests (in fact at
considerable risk of damaging the improving relationship with Russia) in
order to save Moslem lives, and that rather than receiving accolades
from the world community for the first ever international trial for
war crimes of a former leader, the U.S. is criticized for having killed
civilians in Serbia (even though overall, lives were saved, and a
Genocidal maniac was put behind bars).

Why do Americans always play the innocent role?

Again, explain what you are talking about.

While I
certainly don’t condone these attacks whatsoever and hope the guily
person
are brought to justice, the United States of America is certainly not
the
saint of the world. The US plays the role of both the good cop AND
bad cop
at times.

Why do people keep attributing the word “saint” to me (I am a
protestant, you could practically get me kicked out of the church for
this :wink: ?

I am not sure what you mean by “good cop/bad cop”, in case you didn’t
know “good cop/bad cop” is a ruse in which two police officers (both of
whom are actually “good”), try to make the criminal think that one of
them is “bad”, in order to create a psychological tension in the
criminal which the “good” cop then tries to exploit for information;
thus, if the U.S. sometimes plays the “bad” cop, this is only relevant
to the “criminal”, and not society at large (not that I think that the
U.S. and their “partner”, whoever that might be, actually do this).

This is an important point. I for one, do not wish to paint the Moslem
community with any kind of brush; OTOH, while Yasser Arafat was visibly
shaken by the events, but I do not necessarily attribute this to his
pacifist nature (since he is cleary not a pacifist), but rather to his
realization, that this will set back his cause by decades, and that his
political future is in grave doubt (the people dancing in the streets
are simply too ignorant to realize that they have just been shafted by
Osama).

-----Original Message-----
From: Mitchell Schoenbrun [mailto:maschoen@pobox.com]
Posted At: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:30 AM
Posted To: advocacy
Conversation: War
Subject: Re: War


Previously, Gary Dike wrote in qdn.public.qnxrtp.advocacy:


It is sickening to say the least. I think the most sickening images
I’ve
seen is the Palestinians celebrating in the streets.

Ok, I’m a US citizen. I’m completely sickened by the recent
events. I don’t doubt that some Palestinians are happy about
what happened and are celebrating. Now a question. Have you
noticed that the exact same clip of cheering Palestinians
has been played over and over. I noticed that most of the
cheering is from children. I’ve seen less than a dozen
adults. So my question is, what is the point of playing this
over and over on the media? Are we to conclude something
about all or most Palestinians from the behavior of children
and a handful of adults. The US press is always arguing about
how we need balance in reporting. That seems to mean one
centrist and one rightist. Where are the interviews with
Palestinians who abhor violence. I heard one brief comment
from Arafat, and that was all.



Mitchell Schoenbrun --------- maschoen@pobox.com

Just remember, russians do not really wear winter hats everywhere they
go.

That’s because Moscow has a temperate climate :wink: In Winnipeg (my
hometown), everyone really does wear winter hats everywhere they go
(average temperature in January is 10 deg celcius colder than Moscow :wink:

“Rennie Allen” <RAllen@csical.com> wrote in message
news:64F00D816A85D51198390050046F80C9C8B9@exchangecal.hq.csical.com

I don’t think the Balkans is the motive behind the attack upon the
WTC… I
mean, really.

Yes, really; where exactly did I suggest that this was the motive behind
the attack ?

Here:

The reward that the United States gets for intervening in the Balkans,
is criticism like this in general, and a couple of Boeings up the World
Trade Center, specifically.

I only suggested that the U.S. intervened in the Balkans
at a very high cost, with no strategic interests (in fact at
considerable risk of damaging the improving relationship with Russia) in
order to save Moslem lives, and that rather than receiving accolades
from the world community for the first ever international trial for
war crimes of a former leader, the U.S. is criticized for having killed
civilians in Serbia (even though overall, lives were saved, and a
Genocidal maniac was put behind bars).

I agree with you now; perhaps I mis-interpreted what you were trying to say,
or you weren’t clear enough.

Why do Americans always play the innocent role?

Again, explain what you are talking about.

The fact that people are walking around claiming “American is so innocent;
so peaceful; what have we done?”. I’m in no way condoning these attacks at
all, please don’t misinterpret.

While I
certainly don’t condone these attacks whatsoever and hope the guily
person
are brought to justice, the United States of America is certainly not
the
saint of the world. The US plays the role of both the good cop AND
bad cop
at times.

Why do people keep attributing the word “saint” to me

Where did I say YOU? I was attributing it to the country itself.

I am not sure what you mean by “good cop/bad cop”, in case you didn’t
know “good cop/bad cop” is a ruse in which two police officers (both of
whom are actually “good”), try to make the criminal think that one of
them is “bad”, in order to create a psychological tension in the
criminal which the “good” cop then tries to exploit for information;

Yes, I know. I was simply trying to convey the sense that while America
does much good, she also does much that is NOT good, and is mere
self-serving. I really don’t want to get into a discussion on the bad
things the States has done over time - this isn’t the right time. She needs
her allies right now - and I, as well as my country (Canada), is one of
them.

thus, if the U.S. sometimes plays the “bad” cop, this is only relevant
to the “criminal”, and not society at large

Or “perceived” criminal.

“Rennie Allen” <RAllen@csical.com> wrote in message
news:64F00D816A85D51198390050046F80C9C8BC@exchangecal.hq.csical.com

This is an important point. I for one, do not wish to paint the Moslem
community with any kind of brush; OTOH, while Yasser Arafat was visibly
shaken by the events, but I do not necessarily attribute this to his
pacifist nature (since he is cleary not a pacifist), but rather to his
realization, that this will set back his cause by decades, and that his
political future is in grave doubt (the people dancing in the streets
are simply too ignorant to realize that they have just been shafted by
Osama).

Agreed.
The world changed Tuesday - not for the better IMHO. We are at the
“beginning of history” today, a quote from a great article I read in the
Ottawa Sun from Saturday’s edition. The events that unfold over the next
couple of months - and years - will no doubt be scrutinized in the future,
and studied, much like the previous two world wars. I’m only 24, and
haven’t lived through anything of this magnitude before.

Very good discussion about Fanatics.

Fanatics can, however, be harmless to themselves and others (they can be
Maddona fans for instance). The problem is when the “charismatic
leader” that they follow is a psychopath (like Hitler, or Jim Jones).
Fanatics will only engage in violent and horrific behavior when their
“charismatic leader” says it is OK to do so; that is, they (fanatics) do
have an inherent aversion to violent acts, but this can be subverted by
their disorder (their fanaticism). Psychopathic personalities like
Stalin, Hitler, Osama bin Laden, know how to play fanatics like a fiddle
(psychopathic leaders are usually far above average intelligence). I
agree that we should pity the fanatics (stop them first of course), and
reserve all of our hostility for the psychopathic leaders.

IMO people can have mental health disorders that subvert their humanity,
but they still posses humanity, and consequently they should be treated
humanely no matter what horrific acts they commit, but psychopaths have
no humanity to be subverted, and can (and should) be treated as
animals (I don’t think animals should be treated inhumanely in general,
but no one complains when a killer pit bull is put down after savaging a
child). Putting down Milosovic, Osama bin Laden, or Saddam Hussein
should be viewed no differently (they are animals, who don’t understand
what they were doing, because they are incapable of doing so - they have
no human emotions). The safest, most effective way of dealing with these
individuals is to euthanize them, I personally have no moral problems
with doing so.

btw: there are many psychopaths amongst us; most of them do not become
killers (just as most dogs don’t become killers) I do not propose we go
about rounding up psychopaths and killing them, any more than we should
go around rounding up dogs and killing them, I just don’t think we (as
human beings) should have any more problem knocking one of them off when
they do become violent, at least no more of a problem than we have
euthanizing killer dogs (personally I would have a hard time putting a
killer dog down, but I would never question that it needed to be done,
or criticize anyone who was willing to take the job off my hands).

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard R. Kramer [mailto:rrkramer@kramer-smilko.com]
Posted At: Friday, September 14, 2001 4:41 PM
Posted To: advocacy
Conversation: War
Subject: Re: War


Along these lines, Eric Hoffer wrote an interesting book “The True
Believer” back in the fifties. The book talks about the makeup and
behavior of fanatics. Fanatics are a quite different breed from
psychopaths, partisans, programmers … The late attackers should
be classed as fanatics, in my view.

Fanatics do not act on their own goals or beliefs. They are people
who in Hoffer’s view, lack a purpose to their lives and turn to a
charismatic leader to fill that void. He cites as examples,
devout German communists, who in the 1930s became equally devout
fascists. Hitler, apparently, was more appealing than Stalin. The
political systems they aligned with had nothing to do with their
beliefs. The leader’s goals become their’s. They will literally
die for him.

A guerilla is most likely not a fanatic (and I agree not a coward).
But it’s not useful to call the recent attackers cowards; they act
out of an allegiance that makes no sense to us. To call their
leader a coward, on the other hand, makes very good sense.

These disaffected souls would be objects of pity or scorn had they
not become such monstrous agents. Their leader, now he’s the one who
deserves our attention! If he is squashed, his followers are
headless (until they find another to follow). I am of the impression
that there are not other suitable candidates that have the same
inclinations as their current leader. In fact, fanatics such as
these are as likely to align with a religious leader (remember
Jonestown, and those people in San Diego a few years back who
took poison to get to the mothership).

BTW, I am not saying these people aren’t very dangerous or that
they should be ignored. I just don’t think it’s useful to focus
our anger on them.

Richard

Igor Kovalenko wrote:

“Miguel Simon” <> simon@ou.edu> > wrote in message
news:> 3BA20EA7.F0355298@ou.edu> …

A coward is a person that does not put a name/face behind their
actions
with the intent of fleing responsibility and avoid possible
confrontation in an open way.

One coud disagree with this. Another name for this tactic is ‘guerilla
warfare’, fashionable term these days. It used to be called ‘partisan
warfare’. Such tactics has little to do with cowardness, when used by
someone who’s obviously weaker than their adversary. Russian,
yugoslavian,
polish, french and other partisans have inflicted quite a lot of
damage to
Hitler, helping allies to win the WWII. They could not afford to show
their
face however. Would you call them ‘cowards’?

Moreover, a coward is a person that hurts
innocent people to get their way.

Yes, that’d be more appropriate definition.

For example, the Jap. attack to Pearl
Harbor was wrong and it was an infamy, but you could argue that it
was
not a coward act (i.e. the soldiers did not know that war had not
been
declared yet).

It is irrelevant what soldiers knew about declaration of war. They
were
attacking military installation quite capable of defending itself.
Each of
them knew for certain that he could potentially die, so they weren’t
cowards
indeed. Americans already had radar system in place and if they did
not
ignore the warning it gave them, they’d have had a fair chance.

  • Igor

The difference between Hiroshima, and the WTC isn’t frigg’n rocket
science. One was the ENDING act of a war that was STARTED by the
country of which Hiroshima was a part; the other was the STARTING act of
a new war. Once a war is STARTED, INNOCENT people are going to DIE.
This sucks bigtime. If you don’t like it (the fact that innocent people
die during war), then you should not be defending people (or countries)
who START wars, or criticizing those who END wars. Would I like to have
seen W.W.II end without Hiroshima or Nagasaki ? You bet (and I believe
that it could, and should have ended without either of these events);
am I going to criticize the country who, while defending itself from
aggression, used the nuclear bomb to END the war ? No, I have no moral
justification to do so, based on my fundamental belief that nations (and
individuals) have a right to do whatever they themselves deem necessary
to defend themselves from aggressors (just as I can’t criticize an
individual who shoots a B&E suspect in his home, even though there is a
99% chance that he did not need to shoot the robber to preserve his
personal safety - he was violated and he did what he thought he needed
to do - who am I to second guess, and say he could have extricated the
robber with a slingshot instead, and that he was a coward for using a
rifle).

The U.S. has suffered a lot of national guilt over Hiroshima and
Nagasaki (this is as it should be - it has made a better nation), but
the guilt is not over whether the right to use the bomb existed (this
is without question), but whether the need to use the bomb existed. I
have never heard anyone (prior to today) suggest that the U.S.
(specifically Harry Truman, since he essentially made the decision) were
cowards for using the bomb to end W.W.II (although many have
-rightfully- questioned whether the decision was sound, in retrospect).

If Hitler had one the war the same way, do you think the Nazi’s would
still be agonizing over whether they actually needed to use the bomb,
or whether they could have done something that cost fewer human lives ?
I don’t. Could I entertain the characterization of Hitler as a coward ?
You bet, since he would have been killing innocent people in order to
finish a war that he STARTED (in order to get HIS WAY).

-----Original Message-----
From: alg@ppp-209-87-240-149.ottawa.storm.ca
[mailto:alg@ppp-209-87-240-149.ottawa.storm.ca]On Behalf Of Gary Dike
Posted At: Friday, September 14, 2001 4:31 PM
Posted To: advocacy
Conversation: War
Subject: Re: War


Moreover, a coward is a person that hurts
innocent people to get their way.

Ah, like Hiroshima… gotcha…

It is what allows the Sun to work. It is also known as thermo-nuclear
reaction and in essense is opposite of nuclear decay. Typical fuel
would be
deuterium (aka heavy hydrogen) or tritium (even heavier hydrogen).
Reaction
would produce helium plus enormous amount of energy. There are
thermo-nuclear bombs (pioneered by russians) and they are MUCH more
powerful
than nuclear ones (they actually use a plain nuclear bomb as
‘detonator’).
However there are no practically usable reactors, due to problem of
instability of plasma. If problem was solved, it would open unlimited
sources of energy to mankind. Lots of hydrogen around …

You seem to be mixing the concept of nuclear fusion, and nuclear
synthesis. According to what I have read, synthesis is comprised of the
set of reactions that produce elements heavier than iron. These
reactions yield less energy than they consume (thus producing heavy
elements, and proving to be really sucky for bombs, which in general
should produce more energy than they consume :wink:.

You seem to be arguing with different aspect of my statement in every
reply.
Last time you said I was forgetting something, this time it is about
me
mentioning luck…

What I implied (and it was deliberately implied) that you were
“forgetting”, was that Russia lost a substantial competition. You had
implied that Americans always seem to “forget” that Russia was first out
of the gate. Well, if you watch a horse race, you probably don’t
remember who was first out of the gate, it’s who crosses the finishing
line that is memorable.

Note, all that has nothing to do at all with my original statement.
You
can’t deny that US education system indeed does skip ‘inconvinient’
parts of
history, like this one. I know because my daughter is in US school.

That can be frustrating, especially, since it makes the ultimate
American win all that much more significant when you realize, how much
ground they made up.

Yugoslavia was defenseless. Not only it was smaller and weaker, it was
also
denied right to import weapons and fuel which it could use for self
defense.

Huh ? You think that when there is a genocidal maniac killing people by
the truckload, and you decide your gonna take him out, that you should
give him weapons and fuel (just to make it a fair fight). That Igor, is
the most insane statement I have ever heard.

May be its regime was guilty of atrocities, but you can’t deny that
when you
drop a bomb on civilian installation there is a chance of killing
innocent
people. Supersophisticated US military also managed to hit chineese
embassy.
Did those people deserve to die?

Your argument is pathetic Igor. We all know that once a war starts
innocent people are going to die. Less people died because the U.S.
undertook the action, than if it did not.

You also can’t deny there are dual standards in US foreign policy. Why
does
not US bomb Israel for systematic openly admitted killings of
palestinians?

Because the Palestinians initiated the terror attacks on the Israelis
?

Of course those palestinians aren’t angels and they do kill Israelis,
but it
is Israel who occupies their land and denies their right for their own
state, isn’t it?

Yes, it is Palestinian land, and while I don’t condone their terrorist
acts I can understand the motivations. I also understand Israels
response.

And kosovars were not exactly angels either, they did
provoke serbs and commited atrocities too, so may be Milosevich had
right to
establish ‘policy of assasinations’ like Israel does?

Israel responds to Palestinian acts, with restraint, not wholescale
genocide, it is easy to see the difference.

Another example, think about Chechnya problem. First russian military
action
was triggered by local authorities imposing ‘Islam law’ and practicing
things like systematic kidnappings of people for ransom and showcasing
heads
of decapitated people on central square of the capital. Then those
people
hijacked hospital in Russia and killed hundreds of helpless patients
in
cold blood. They also blew residential buildings in Moscow which
caused
hundreds of deaths. They hijacked numerous planes and buses. However
US
was very concerned about Russia denying their rights and members of US
congress accepted delegation of rebels. When Russia was talking about
international terrorism (there are foreign mercenaries in Chechnya)
commiting an act of war against it, words practically fell on deaf
ears of
western leaders.

Actually, the U.S. was very “tolerant” of Russian activity in Chechnya.
I believe that if Russia, had taken the time to muster support (as the
U.S. is doing now) that they would have been assisted in dealing with
Chechnya. Granted it is harder for Russia to “sway opinion” than the
U.S. is (with it’s huge economic power), but I remember arguing with
people who were horrified at what Russia was doing in Chechnya (my
position: Russia was completely justified in their actions). The vast
majority of the people in the U.S. government concured with my view.

Does not that look at least a little dual-standard?

No, although, it does look like the press was a lot less interested in
it, than they were in the current situation.

Just how much US valued human life when they decided to drop nukes at
Hiroshima and Nagasaki? I would understand if they were military
bases, but
they were just cities with mostly civilian population. Hundreds of
thousands
of innocent people were indiscriminately vaporised in a second and
generations had to suffer later. Of course there was a war and
japanese
attacked first, but they struck a navy base. If you ask me, nuclear
bombing was ‘crime against humanity’. If US wanted to end war sooner
and
thus save lives by demonstrating its mighty power (one very popular
explanation), it could choose some more reasonable target, could it?

See my other post, where I go into this in depth.

This is an interesting point. May be you are right, although I suspect
case
with India was considerably simpler. It was classical colony, and
Britain
had no rights there other than colonial rights. Israel can’t just
‘free a
colony’. I suppose Britain would not conceede so easily if India
demanded to
make East London their capital.

Nonsense. Israel was clearly willing to trade land for peace, if it
wasn’t for radical elements of the Palestinian community there would be
a Palestine today (granted it wouldn’t be the same as the original
Palestine, and sure, the Palestinians are entitled to all of their
land back, but the bottom line is they’d be a lot better off).

And speaking about wisdom of Ghandi, why that wisdom did not help them
to
settle Kashemir issue with Pakistan over last 50 years?

You don’t see Ghandi around do you ?

You can’t really get it unless you are capable of putting yourself
into
‘their shoes’. Imagine yourself a kid in a class. There’s bunch of
others,
but there one who just goes and goes and goes about how Great he is,
how
he’s The Best, how Generous he is, how all of them are really in Debt
to
him, how Important he is, how he’s an Example for all of them, how he
should
keep them all under Control so they don’t dare to challenge his way of
life…

I can see this kid, being ignored, not killed.

How popular you think he’d be among the crowd? Funny thing is, that is
actually understood by some americans too.

As I said before, I understand how that translates into dislike, not
hatred.

… The
author
apparently understood quite well why nearly everyone would love to
hate US.
But then he told ‘it is okay with us, because we can kick everyone’s
ass and
frankly, we like it that way’.

Well, I never said all Americans were smart. This guy apparently has
the same intellect as the people who flew into the WTC.