Armin Steinhoff <> firstname.lastname@example.org> > wrote:
Amiga OSXL (> http://www.haage-partner.de/amigaxl> ). They were selling
their system as software only and included a custom QNX runtime plus
their software. Sounds exactly like the scenario you are after.
This doesn’t change the official licenses of QSSL.
I don’t follow your meaning.
Camz, Armin wanted to say that it’s not possible with official license
agreements. So there must have been a special agreement with QSSL for
the Amiga QSXL !!!
The runtime licesnses are not electronic.
They are a certificate or sticker. They are all official licenses, and
AFAIK, the runtime license that Amiga OSXL used was an official one, and
not the NC one.
When QSSL makes a special exception for one company it doesn’t mean that
this exception is valid for all other companies, too …
No … that’s make no sense. What happens if every third party would
bundle QNX with its product and the customer has to install a few third
In a sense you are right, QSS’s current model forces you to essentially
provide two different packages of your software. One that includes an
OS runtime and one that does not.
it’s not correct!
A 3rd Party has to sell his software separately w/o any QNX runtime
When a 3rd Party has bought Momentics he is only allowed to resell
runtimes when they are pre-installed on hardware together with his 3rd
Our customers e.g. who are working in all kind of industrial automation
up to embedded systems are using fieldbus systems with different APIs or
different programming tools with MS based workbenches and QNX Target
systems. They are assembling their hardware themselves according their
requirements. Most of them use standard x86 hardware.
- In the QNX4 days when the runtimes were delivered on floppy disks it
was possible to resell also runtime licenses when you have sold already
a full QNX development system to the customer … but we had often to
justify to the QNX-Sales why a few customers wanted all out of one hand
and didn’t want to buy their software from various sources!!!
With the license certificates instead of software on media it’s
impossible to resell Momentics even when you are doing a full project.
You can’t sign the contract on behalf of your customer.
The fundamental reality though is that unlike windows, people don’t just
go out and buy QNX without some very specific software that they want to
run on it.
True, because of QNX alone makes no sense
But the customer will have 2 sources for buying:
- QSSx for buying Momentics and signing the contract
- 3rd Parties for buying needed specific QNX based software
You don’t visit a company and find that they just happen to
have a QNX server sitting in the corner waiting desperately for some
software to run on it.
We have customers who have already decided for QNX for good reason and
then they are looking for QNX support for their hardware configuration.
It’s nothing special, at least in industrial automation.
Instead people find your software and then discover that they need
QNX to run it.
That’s often the case, especially for SoftPLCs or our DACHSview, a
function block oriented graphical programming tool.
Can you imagine what happens when a customer wants to buy DACHSview for
QNX and we have to send him for buying QNX Runtimes to the QNX sales
He gets offered Mometics PE for 12.000 EUR. He will be happy about that
expensive Runtime and is sorting out QNX solutions regardless how much
he would have liked it …
That’s the reality !!!
You can offer the most advanced programming systems with MS based
Workbenches, but QSSL has no interest in that growing market with
realtime Targets. It’s currently not possible for a pot. customers to
buy ONLY Runtimes for a x86 Target PC.
Let’s see what is with the promise for Runtime CDs in Q1/2005 which we
got last week…
It’s going to be very rare indeed that you find an
existing system just waiting for your software to be installed on.
What you want can be created, QSS has essentially given you the tools
to do so when you purchased your development seat.
There are no tools for creating Runtime distributions!
What they haven’t done is make it easy for you to do it.
Your biggest problem is that you don’t want to build OS runtime install
media that goes along with your app.
again, 3rd Parties are only allowed to resell pre-installed runtimes
from a bought Momentics system. In that case, you can give
an_additional_CD to your customer with your software incl. the QNX runtime!
The legal license model from QSSL doesn’t allow to build a QNX runtime
and resell it on CD together with a license sticker.
OTOH, who would be responsible for that burned and sold runtime?
QSSL don’t know what you have burned and can’t give warranty!
Can you imagine, that a customer would like to get a legal CD with
original software from QSSL ?
Isn’t it a joke that QSSL has so many problems to bring out one or 2
Runtime CD versions with may be 5 or 10 licences included?
You want QSS to do it for you.
QSSL is licensing for OEMs e.g. different standardized Runtime Bundles
with predefined Runtime modules, e.g.
- Non-GUI Device Bundle
- Graphical Device Bundle
- Multimedia Information Appliance Bundle
- Standard Runtime Bundle
- High-End Runtime Bundle
QNX is very modular, so what’s the problem to offer Runtime Bundles on
BTW, I know OEMs who would be happy to hand over original RT CDs to
their industrial automation customers instead of the license sheet + sticker
You don’t want to have to keep inventory of runtime licenses or media
for anything other than your own app. THAT is your problem, not
3rd Party products are normally standard products, and 3rd Party
products from different vendors are often used in one and the same
application. Is it so hard to understand it??
Here an example to make it more clear.
e.g. Hardware assembled from a customer for an open control system in
PCI or PC/104 format
- PROFIBUS controller board
- digital I/O board
- analog I/O board
and all interfaced by a SoftPLC has to be supported under QNX
No problem to buy the hardware, drivers and SoftPLC.
But at the end, buying a QNX Runtime is the knock-out!
If this customer would be willing to program in C, he would probably
accept the price for Momentics… and would have only fun to fiddle out
how to install the separate runtime…
There is a co-dependancy between your software and the OS.
3rd Party products run on QNX but have not to be bundled with it…
It’s almost a catch-22 scenario. QSS wouldn’t sell a runtime to this
particular customer if that customer was not buying your software, and
they wouldn’t buy your software if they can’t also buy QNX.
A customer who wants to buy our Programming tools with MS based
Workbench is interested in the offered functionality. Next step is to
tell him that he will need a QNX runtime which he can buy only together
Tell a customer who wants a SCADA or SoftPLC for MS that he has to buy a
complete MS development system in order to be allowed to install a MS
Please understand that QSSL is ignoring a growing market segment and is
loosing market shares in industrial automation. May be the embedded
market is enough for them?
It’s a question of their sales strategy and they don’t want customers
who would like to run ONLY their critical parts of their control system
What you want sounds like you would like to be able to sell helium, but
you don’t want to be responsible for selling the containers to put it
This model works for propane, but not helium. The major difference is
one of market inertia. When propane barbeques first came out there wasn’t
much of a consumer market for buying a spare/empty/replacemnt propane
tank other than buying it with the BBQ. Once the market for propane
BBQ’s got large enough, a (smaller) market for empty tanks emerged.
That market simply didn’t exist at first and if you wanted a 2nd tank
you had to buy another BBQ. It was stupid, but the demand for extra
tanks outweighed the cost of providing them.
The same is true with what you are after.
When the Container is Momentics and the Runtime would be Helium it’s not
meeting the situation…
For Helium and Propan you can use the same “tank”, but for a target
system running QNX you have already the “tank” with the MS workbench
There is no real market for a commercial stand-alone QNX runtime.
You are completely wrong!!!
There was a market for QNX 4 Runtimes, and there is also a market for
QNX 6 runtimes!
What I mean by this is that the market is so small as to be
unprofitable. People don’t buy QNX and then buy software to run
on it. They buy the software and then NEED Qnx for it.
You are chasing the dream of a market reality that does not exist,
and probably never will. QSS isn’t really in the position to change
that any more than you are.
There are some QSSL employees who are aware about the necessity of RT
CDs and are fighting for it internally for a long time. One strong
fighter for it was just hired from WindRiver …
The idea to target only the ‘embedded market’ with an outdated licensing
model (copied from their competitors) and droping all others market
segments is more than brain damaged … sorry I have no other words for
I will agree that their licensing model has flaws. You don’t actually
have an issue with their licensing model though,
sorry, the main issue is their licensing model and non existing RT CDs
which customers can buy w/o Momentics!
you have an issue with their distribution model for install media.
They are NOT the same issue.
Camz, you should read more exactly before doing your conclusion…