Tilcon and Photon

QNX Newsgroups (Archives) qdn.public.qnxrtp.photon
1

Hi Guys,

I’ve got sort of a general, non-specific question to ask our Photon
engineers.

Nonetheless…here goes.

I just got off the phone with Tilcon Software. They say they can’t rotate
my meter needle because of performance issues with Photon. The guy I spoke
to claims that Photon has gotten slower and slower and they continue to have
problem after problem with it in regards to speed. They say that they can’t
do somethings like rotating a bitmap in real-time, (i.e. following the RPM
of an engine for example when you put your foot through the floor and it
isn’t in gear…).

He even said they are backing off photon support because of the problems and
are going to go after VxWorks (he bragged a lot about being a big partner
with them now), and that the stuff they can’t do with Photon can be done in
MS Windows and VxWork’s windowing system. He also mentioned a company that
has switched to VxWorks because of the graphics issues they are having with
QNX. He mentioned the name, but I don’t remember what it is.

He then said they were more focused on Vxworks, and the next QNX release was
going to be in Jan '04 while a intermediate VxWorks release. It seemed to
me they are backing off QNX support because of supposed Photon issues.

This all came up because I was rather upset with them because of things I
understood they said I could do with their system, only to find (after
spending a lot of money on graphic artists) that I can’t, and their excuse
is that Photon is to blame.

He also claimed that VxWorks is gaining the auto industry because of the
graphics problems of Photon.

He seemed to think that you guys know about these “performance issues” and
claims that you aren’t helping out.

Now, after speaking with one of your good Applications Engineers (Dave Bott)
this doesn’t make any sense. What’s up with this, have you guys heard about
Tilcon’s difficulties? Have they even mentioned anything to you?

Thanks,

Kevin

2

Kevin Stallard <kevin@fffflyingrobbbotsss.com> wrote:

I just got off the phone with Tilcon Software. They say they can’t rotate
my meter needle because of performance issues with Photon. The guy I spoke
to claims that Photon has gotten slower and slower and they continue to have
problem after problem with it in regards to speed. They say that they can’t
do somethings like rotating a bitmap in real-time

I sense a bull-shit detector going off. I have had some history with the Tilcon
folks and IMHO, they have always had a poor-quality product. I evaluated their
product back in the QNX2 days, and their demo used an unreasonable amount of
memory (at that time) and was very slow. I later re-reviewed one of their QNX4
versions and it was just as bad. If you ask me (and I know you didn’t), the
Tilcon guys have never had a good product, and if they can’t rotate a dial in
photon it is due to the inefficiencies of their code.

I would not reccomend Tilcon products to anyone.


He even said they are backing off photon support because of the problems and
are going to go after VxWorks (he bragged a lot about being a big partner
with them now), and that the stuff they can’t do with Photon can be done in
MS Windows and VxWork’s windowing system. He also mentioned a company that
has switched to VxWorks because of the graphics issues they are having with

If photon can handle scaling a DVD movie @ 30 fps to full screen 100% in software
and only push the CPU to 50%, then you know that such a comment is pure bullshit
and/or ignorance from Tilcon. If they aren’t being incomptent (and they probably
are) then there is a good chance that faster animation in windows or vxworks
is achieved at the expense of realtime / deterministic performance.

This all came up because I was rather upset with them because of things I
understood they said I could do with their system, only to find (after
spending a lot of money on graphic artists) that I can’t, and their excuse
is that Photon is to blame.

That alone should have set off warning bells and raised a red flag.


Tilcon should be avoided, that’s my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Cheers,
Camz.

\

Martin Zimmerman camz@passageway.com
Camz Software Enterprises www.passageway.com/camz/qnx/
QNX Programming & Consulting www.qnxzone.com

3

He even said they are backing off photon support because of the problems and
are going to go after VxWorks (he bragged a lot about being a big partner
with them now), and that the stuff they can’t do with Photon can be done in
MS Windows and VxWork’s windowing system. He also mentioned a company that
has switched to VxWorks because of the graphics issues they are having with
QNX. He mentioned the name, but I don’t remember what it is.

Graphics issues with QNX or with Tilcon’s software on QNX?

I am sure that VxWorks and Windows fall more into line with how they want
to see the graphics interfaces from thier software. From what I understand
they do everything with bitmaps and then draw them on the screen for widgets
and such. I doubt they have ever looked into using shared memory or
offscreen contexts under Photon and are trying to push all thier bitmaps
with message passing. That makes it a copy from the app to io-graphics and
then a copy from io-graphics to the video hardware. Would that be slow
compared to a direct rendering model like Windows? Sure. But is that OUR
fault when there are ways to draw without passing the images? I don’t
think so.

Based on this little bit of information it sounds like a classic case of
them not wanting to support Photon anymore and instead doing a switch-a-roo
when people complain about the Photon version of thier software. Very easy
to sell it as a “problem” with Photon and cover up thier lack of interest.

Just as a proof of concept…open PhAB, drop down a PtImageArea (found near
the bottom of the Widget palette), load an image and enable the ImageArea
Flags for auto-scaling. Then resize the widget and watch the realtime
(bi-linear?) scaling of the image area.

chris

–
Chris McKillop <cdm@qnx.com> “The faster I go, the behinder I get.”
Software Engineer, QSSL – Lewis Carroll –
http://qnx.wox.org/

4

Uhhmmm…

Look guys, I should have waited an hour or two or three before I posted
that…I don’t wish to start any mud slinging here, and it looks like that
is what I started to do.

I’m finding ways to work around some of my difficulties, and the sales/tech
guys at Tilcon are being very helpful is solving my problems. It is too
easy for me to rant, and I need to learn to write stuff I want to post and
then wait for a couple of hours before I do.

Mainly I wanted to see if anyone knew of technical problems with doing stuff
really fast in Photon. (i.e. doing rotations really really fast). It looks
like it can be done and as in the DVD example and scaling example, Photon
isn’t the issue. I will try to be more discrete so that we/I don’t step on
any more toes.

Thanks for your feedback however, I appreciate it.

Sorry for the ruckus, Kevin picks himself and the Tilcon sales guy up off
the floor and dusts him off…here, let me buy you a beer…and here’s
two bits to clean up the mess tosses a couple of coins to the bar tender,
picks up his hat and meanders out of the room…the piano starts playing
again in the background…

Cheers,

Kevin


“Kevin Stallard” <kevin@fffflyingrobbbotsss.com> wrote in message
news:b9ehj1$skf$1@inn.qnx.com…

Hi Guys,

I’ve got sort of a general, non-specific question to ask our Photon
engineers.

Nonetheless…here goes.

I just got off the phone with Tilcon Software. They say they can’t rotate
my meter needle because of performance issues with Photon. The guy I
spoke
to claims that Photon has gotten slower and slower and they continue to
have
problem after problem with it in regards to speed. They say that they
can’t
do somethings like rotating a bitmap in real-time, (i.e. following the RPM
of an engine for example when you put your foot through the floor and it
isn’t in gear…).

He even said they are backing off photon support because of the problems
and
are going to go after VxWorks (he bragged a lot about being a big partner
with them now), and that the stuff they can’t do with Photon can be done
in
MS Windows and VxWork’s windowing system. He also mentioned a company
that
has switched to VxWorks because of the graphics issues they are having
with
QNX. He mentioned the name, but I don’t remember what it is.

He then said they were more focused on Vxworks, and the next QNX release
was
going to be in Jan '04 while a intermediate VxWorks release. It seemed to
me they are backing off QNX support because of supposed Photon issues.

This all came up because I was rather upset with them because of things I
understood they said I could do with their system, only to find (after
spending a lot of money on graphic artists) that I can’t, and their excuse
is that Photon is to blame.

He also claimed that VxWorks is gaining the auto industry because of the
graphics problems of Photon.

He seemed to think that you guys know about these “performance issues” and
claims that you aren’t helping out.

Now, after speaking with one of your good Applications Engineers (Dave
Bott)
this doesn’t make any sense. What’s up with this, have you guys heard
about
Tilcon’s difficulties? Have they even mentioned anything to you?

Thanks,

Kevin

5

Kevin Stallard <kevin@fffflyingrobbbotsss.com> wrote:

Mainly I wanted to see if anyone knew of technical problems with doing stuff
really fast in Photon. (i.e. doing rotations really really fast). It looks
like it can be done and as in the DVD example and scaling example, Photon
isn’t the issue. I will try to be more discrete so that we/I don’t step on
any more toes.

What would be interesting would be to get the Tilcon developers on the
newsgroups asking technical questions. Then everyone would win (you,
Tilcon and QSS). When you talk to your Tilcon rep you should recommend it to
them. As I had someone point out to me today, getting the best performance
out of Photon might not be as obvious from the docs as we would like to think.

chris

–
Chris McKillop <cdm@qnx.com> “The faster I go, the behinder I get.”
Software Engineer, QSSL – Lewis Carroll –
http://qnx.wox.org/

6

Kevin Stallard wrote:

Hi Guys,

I’ve got sort of a general, non-specific question to ask our Photon
engineers.

Nonetheless…here goes.

I just got off the phone with Tilcon Software. They say they can’t rotate
my meter needle because of performance issues with Photon. The guy I spoke
to claims that Photon has gotten slower and slower and they continue to have
problem after problem with it in regards to speed.

This is strange, anyone I’ve talked to has told me that each version of
Photon has gotten faster…I know we have been doing lots of work in
the optimization area and people have noticed. Maybe the way they are
using Photon has gotten slower with each release. Don’t know, since
this is all news to me. But the general usage by all accounts I’ve
heard are that it is indeed faster than it was before (talking since 6.0
here). I think the only time I’ve heard of a complaint from Tilcon was
indirectly from someone else…and they said something lame like
“Offscreen is horribly broken…just ask the Tilcon guys” without
actually giving any real meat to the problem. This was years ago. I’d
have to go digging for it through the news archives to find it.

They really should be talking to us if there are problems. I’m sure we
could help them get better performance out of Photon.

Dave Rempel

7

I spoke to one of the Tilcon guys at a users group meeting last year and it
seems they don’t have access to outside news. That may have changed but I
don’t think they’re generally very much into talking to outsiders. Probably
they could get a lot of performance tweaks if they just asked some of the
guys here for help.

cheers,

Kris

“Chris McKillop” <cdm@qnx.com> wrote in message
news:b9f1o5$so8$1@nntp.qnx.com…

Kevin Stallard <> kevin@fffflyingrobbbotsss.com> > wrote:

Mainly I wanted to see if anyone knew of technical problems with doing
stuff
really fast in Photon. (i.e. doing rotations really really fast). It
looks
like it can be done and as in the DVD example and scaling example,
Photon
isn’t the issue. I will try to be more discrete so that we/I don’t step
on
any more toes.


What would be interesting would be to get the Tilcon developers on the
newsgroups asking technical questions. Then everyone would win (you,
Tilcon and QSS). When you talk to your Tilcon rep you should recommend it
to
them. As I had someone point out to me today, getting the best
performance
out of Photon might not be as obvious from the docs as we would like to
think.

chris

–
Chris McKillop <> cdm@qnx.com> > “The faster I go, the behinder I get.”
Software Engineer, QSSL – Lewis Carroll –
http://qnx.wox.org/

8

Kris Warkentin <kewarken@qnx.com> wrote:

I spoke to one of the Tilcon guys at a users group meeting last year and it
seems they don’t have access to outside news. That may have changed but I

I am sure once Will finishes his web interface @get.qnx.com
to news://inn.qnx.com, Tilcon guys will be happy :slight_smile:

9

Very impresive demo. I just tried it with a photograph.


Chris McKillop <cdm@qnx.com> wrote:

CM > Just as a proof of concept…open PhAB, drop down a PtImageArea (found near
CM > the bottom of the Widget palette), load an image and enable the ImageArea
CM > Flags for auto-scaling. Then resize the widget and watch the realtime
CM > (bi-linear?) scaling of the image area.

10

Kris Warkentin <kewarken@qnx.com> wrote:
KW > I spoke to one of the Tilcon guys at a users group meeting last year and it
KW > seems they don’t have access to outside news. That may have changed but I
KW > don’t think they’re generally very much into talking to outsiders. Probably
KW > they could get a lot of performance tweaks if they just asked some of the
KW > guys here for help.

KW > cheers,

Kind of scary.

Are they still programing by flipping bit switches?

11

Kris Warkentin <kewarken@qnx.com> wrote:
KW > I spoke to one of the Tilcon guys at a users group meeting last year and it
KW > seems they don’t have access to outside news. That may have changed but I
KW > don’t think they’re generally very much into talking to outsiders. Probably
KW > they could get a lot of performance tweaks if they just asked some of the
KW > guys here for help.

KW > cheers,

KW > Kris

They seem to have posted a time or two.

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:42:59 -0400
Message-ID: <8s7p47$i7r$1@inn.qnx.com>
Xref: inn.qnx.com qdn.public.qnxrtp.photon:169

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:38:00 -0400
Message-ID: <8skgjl$93v$1@inn.qnx.com>
Xref: inn.qnx.com qdn.public.qnxrtp.photon:200

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:40:33 -0400
Message-ID: <8skgof$95h$1@inn.qnx.com>
Xref: inn.qnx.com qdn.public.qnxrtp.photon:201

But that was it. Back in Oct 2000.

I think they unfortunately gave up on Photon 2 a little too early.

12

Looks like there’s one from 2002 wrt to GetPixel…if they are using
PgReadScreen to handle getting the bit map data (copy from vram to
system ram, which is really slow btw…pulling that data back across the
bus usually hurts), rotate the image in system ram, then draw the image
(copy from system ram to vram), then I can see why they’d have problems.

Bill Caroselli wrote:

Kris Warkentin <> kewarken@qnx.com> > wrote:
KW > I spoke to one of the Tilcon guys at a users group meeting last year and it
KW > seems they don’t have access to outside news. That may have changed but I
KW > don’t think they’re generally very much into talking to outsiders. Probably
KW > they could get a lot of performance tweaks if they just asked some of the
KW > guys here for help.

KW > cheers,

KW > Kris

They seem to have posted a time or two.

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:42:59 -0400
Message-ID: <8s7p47$i7r$> 1@inn.qnx.com
Xref: inn.qnx.com qdn.public.qnxrtp.photon:169

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:38:00 -0400
Message-ID: <8skgjl$93v$> 1@inn.qnx.com
Xref: inn.qnx.com qdn.public.qnxrtp.photon:200

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:40:33 -0400
Message-ID: <8skgof$95h$> 1@inn.qnx.com
Xref: inn.qnx.com qdn.public.qnxrtp.photon:201

But that was it. Back in Oct 2000.

I think they unfortunately gave up on Photon 2 a little too early.

13

Bill Caroselli <qtps@earthlink.net> wrote:

Kris Warkentin <> kewarken@qnx.com> > wrote:
KW > I spoke to one of the Tilcon guys at a users group meeting last year and it
KW > seems they don’t have access to outside news. That may have changed but I
KW > don’t think they’re generally very much into talking to outsiders. Probably
KW > they could get a lot of performance tweaks if they just asked some of the
KW > guys here for help.

KW > cheers,

Kind of scary.

Are they still programing by flipping bit switches?

You got a better way to toggle in an IPL??? :slight_smile:

Cheers,
-RK

–
Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices +1 613 599 8316.
Realtime Systems Architecture, Books, Video-based and Instructor-led
Training, Consulting and Software Products at www.parse.com.

14

Robert Krten <rk@parse.com> wrote:
RK > Bill Caroselli <qtps@earthlink.net> wrote:

Kind of scary.

Are they still programing by flipping bit switches?

RK > You got a better way to toggle in an IPL??? :slight_smile:

RK > Cheers,
RK > -RK

I should have known that you’d appreciate that.
So would Bill flowers if/when he reads it.

15

Robert Krten wrote:

Bill Caroselli <> qtps@earthlink.net> > wrote:
Kris Warkentin <> kewarken@qnx.com> > wrote:
KW > I spoke to one of the Tilcon guys at a users group meeting last year and it
KW > seems they don’t have access to outside news. That may have changed but I
KW > don’t think they’re generally very much into talking to outsiders. Probably
KW > they could get a lot of performance tweaks if they just asked some of the
KW > guys here for help.

KW > cheers,

Kind of scary.

Are they still programing by flipping bit switches?

You got a better way to toggle in an IPL??? > :slight_smile:

Cheers,
-RK

I prefer ZIF sockets and EPROM burners, thank you very much! Drag

yourself out of the early '70s!

Cheers - Phil

–
Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices +1 613 599 8316.
Realtime Systems Architecture, Books, Video-based and Instructor-led
Training, Consulting and Software Products at > www.parse.com> .

16

Phil Olynyk <pholynyk@rogers.com> wrote:

PO > Robert Krten wrote:

Bill Caroselli <> qtps@earthlink.net> > wrote:
Are they still programing by flipping bit switches?

You got a better way to toggle in an IPL??? > :slight_smile:

Cheers,
-RK

PO > I prefer ZIF sockets and EPROM burners, thank you very much! Drag

PO > yourself out of the early '70s!

Ah! I’ll bet Phil even like to use graphic monitors and a mouse!


Chill man. Can’t some guys get a little nastalgic ever now and then?

17

camz@passageway.com wrote:
[ clip …]

I sense a bull-shit detector going off. I have had some history with the Tilcon
folks and IMHO, they have always had a poor-quality product. I evaluated their
product back in the QNX2 days, and their demo used an unreasonable amount of
memory (at that time) and was very slow. I later re-reviewed one of their QNX4
versions and it was just as bad. If you ask me (and I know you didn’t), the
Tilcon guys have never had a good product, and if they can’t rotate a dial in
photon it is due to the inefficiencies of their code.

I would not reccomend Tilcon products to anyone.

These comments are realy sick. What is your interest to harm the
business of the Tilcon guys??

I can only say that the latest version of Tilcon for QNX4 was running
very fast and stable (after a kernel fix from QSSL).

It’s a pitty that Photon 2.x seems to be for them a moving target and
the maintenance-to-revenue ratio was probably too bad.

Armin


He even said they are backing off photon support because of the problems and
are going to go after VxWorks (he bragged a lot about being a big partner
with them now), and that the stuff they can’t do with Photon can be done in
MS Windows and VxWork’s windowing system. He also mentioned a company that
has switched to VxWorks because of the graphics issues they are having with


If photon can handle scaling a DVD movie @ 30 fps to full screen 100% in software
and only push the CPU to 50%, then you know that such a comment is pure bullshit
and/or ignorance from Tilcon. If they aren’t being incomptent (and they probably
are) then there is a good chance that faster animation in windows or vxworks
is achieved at the expense of realtime / deterministic performance.


This all came up because I was rather upset with them because of things I
understood they said I could do with their system, only to find (after
spending a lot of money on graphic artists) that I can’t, and their excuse
is that Photon is to blame.


That alone should have set off warning bells and raised a red flag.


Tilcon should be avoided, that’s my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Cheers,
Camz.