I just read about this initiative on slashdot. I have never been
concerned about any of the so called “big brother” scenerios in the
past, but this thing really freaks me out.
Not being one to put a lot of credence in things I read on /., I was
wondering if anyone here has any information to ease my fears ?
Is this really as bad as it appears ? Is anyone here up on this thing ?
Rennie
Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS) wrote:
Can you give a URL or a brief description of what freaks you out?
www.slashdot.org (see Palladium article).
Briefly TCPA/Palladium is a collusion between M$ and Intel that
basically consists of a microprocessor (on the die with the “real”
microprocessor), that authenticates both the mobo and perihperals, and
the operating system and applications. It is being promoted as an
anti-piracy system, but technically is capable of implementing
practically any policy that Intel/M$ see fit, including:
a) “physically” preventing other operating systems (or “undesirable”
Windoze applications) from running on the hardware
b) “physically” blocking access to whatever ip addresses Intel/M$
deems “inappropriate” (i.e. if Wintel desired it, the network hardware
could not - under any circumstances - be cajoled into sending packets
to “undesirable” ip addresses)
c) complete and exclusive control of practically anything else
imaginable that might be done with a computer, or any embedded device
with TCPA (which they are vowing to make ubiquitous, in fact, with usual
M$ rhetoric they are claiming that the “future of the company depends on
it”)
They are claiming it can be turned off, but are promising a curtailed
“user experience” if one does.
This is what I understand; I was hoping someone could tell me that this
won’t provide Wintel with the right to almost complete control
evertyhing we see, say and do (and perhaps provided a convincing
argument to back it up 
Rennie
Kevin Stallard wrote:
My opinion is that if Intel and MS really do this, then there will just
generate demand and a market elsewhere. Do you remember all the fuss about
CPU id’s?
Yes I remember the CPU id’s. This is completely different. I don’t
recall that CPU id’s would disallow me from running another O/S on a
machine I bought. Now both Intel and AMD are in on this, and since the
processor authenticates the mobo and the O/S nobody will be able to
build a “unauthenticated” mobo that’ll accept an AMD or Intel chip.
Supposedly, if they follow through on the commitment to be able to turn
off TCPA, I’d be able to run another O/S, but that’s putting a lot of
trust in the fact that they’ll actually do it; and as web sites start
demanding TCPA authentication, I’ll be able to visit fewer and fewer web
sites (eventually none) as time goes by, which means my alternative is
what exactly ? A platform that doesn’t allow me to do anything useful
on the internet (because the web sites don’t care about the 5% of the
market that isn’t Wintel with TCPA - and M$ spinsters will convince them
that this 5% is largely composed of hackers who are just “troublemakers”
that no one would want on their site anyway) ?
This thing scares me silly. I don’t see any way for a viable
alternative market (due to the fact that the content providers will be
perfectly happy with the 95% of the population that M$ can and will
deliver them), this is M$ doing what every thinking persons worst
nightmare should be (using their PC dominance to stamp out all
competition once and for all - not to mention the enormous possibility
for nearly complete elimination of all personal freedoms). If this
thing goes down, the only thing stopping the nightmare scenerio from
happening, is M$ own good will (if M$ were run by Mother Teresa, I would
be uncomfortable; given that it is run by BG, it completely freaks me out).
If this gets out to privacy groups, there will be an uproar if it
has any real consequences.
Is this similar to the “nobody would elect Hitler if he was really such
a bad guy” argument ? Hitler did get elected, he was a bad guy; these
things do happen (especially when the attitude is that there is
“someone” “out there” who will stop it).
Rennie
Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS) wrote:
I don’t think it will effect most web sites unless they have secured pages.
Most web sites are advertisements. People want EVERYONE to see them, for
whatever reason. And don’t forget all those porn sites that get 1/20 th of
a cent for every exposure and anywhere from a penny to a dime for a click
through. They are not going to turn anyone away.
I strongly disagree. TCPA authentication is not about secure web
sites, it is about accepting a connection from an “authenticated”
“trustworthy” computer (one that M$ guarantees you’ll be able to trace
back to a particular user). Even free sites will eventually only accept
connections from “trusted” machines. For most of the businesses out
there 95% of everybody is everybody (just witness all the sites
currently that only work properly with IE), and when I can’t start doing
all of the things I need to be able to do in my day to day life, on my
“alternative” platform, I am going to be extremely tempted to cave-in
and become a “trusted” host (which means only one thing, and that is
using M$ Windoze). That 95% very quickly becomes 99.99%.
Also, remember that the web sites themselves run on computers, are they
gonna buy “alternative” platforms that won’t enable them to make use of
the new “TCPA” enabled features in 95% of their clients out there ? No,
of course not, they are going to be running TCPA enabled hosts, and what
does that mean ? It means one and only one thing, that they will be
running Windoze. And since the web sites are running Windoze, then if
M$ says that they will only accept connections from “trusted” hosts,
then they will have no choice, since M$ will simply make sure that IIS
doesn’t accept connections from non “trusted” hosts thereby insuring the
transition from 95% to 99.9999%. You do understand that this is a
catch-22 that can only come out one way once it is started don’t you ?
The only thing M$ needs to make this catch-22 work, is to start with a
95% market share (which coincidentally is what they have). As I see it
the only thing that can foil their plan is if large numbers of people
with Windoze platforms disable TCPA, and don’t turn it back on the
first time they encounter a web site that says they must turn it on (one
of which will undoubtedly be the M$ web page where you have to go to
register your version of M$ Money - or Office, before it will work).
Rennie
Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS) wrote:
OK. Rennie, I agree with you.
So who do we start writing letters to to outlaw this thing?
As I see it there are 2 primary strategies.
U.S. government acting on behalf of the people (I wouldn’t bet the
farm on that one but it’s worth a shot) i.e. write you representative.
the public (If the general public can be made to understand the
potential consequences of this, they can both pressure the government,
and disable TCPA on their computers - if they are allowed to - in spite
of how painful it might be).
To get the message to the public, letters to the editor of your local
newspaper might be a good alternative (heck once TCPA is widely deployed
genuine newsprint might be the only way to be heard - as M$ might just
decide that emails and web pages denouncing TCPA, are “disruptive to
commerce”
The other thing to do, is to explain the potential consequences of
this thing to as many people as you can.
I do think that the grassroots approach (i.e. start local) will be the
most effective.
Rennie
Can you give a URL or a brief description of what freaks you out?
“Rennie Allen” <rallen@csical.com> wrote in message
news:3D1AD4B3.2020107@csical.com…
I just read about this initiative on slashdot. I have never been
concerned about any of the so called “big brother” scenerios in the
past, but this thing really freaks me out.Not being one to put a lot of credence in things I read on /., I was
wondering if anyone here has any information to ease my fears ?Is this really as bad as it appears ? Is anyone here up on this thing ?
Rennie
“Rennie Allen” <rallen@csical.com> wrote in message
news:3D1AD4B3.2020107@csical.com…
I just read about this initiative on slashdot. I have never been
concerned about any of the so called “big brother” scenerios in the
past, but this thing really freaks me out.Not being one to put a lot of credence in things I read on /., I was
wondering if anyone here has any information to ease my fears ?Is this really as bad as it appears ? Is anyone here up on this thing ?
Rennie
It looks pretty bad to me as well. But I am sure that Intel and
Microsoft managers have our best interests at heart. Just like the folks at
Enron, Tyco and Worldcom!!
Remember, “It isn’t paranoia, when they really are out to get you.”
Pat
“Patrick J, (Pat) Hogan” <pjhogan@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:affk8c$fj7$1@inn.qnx.com…
“Rennie Allen” <> rallen@csical.com> > wrote in message
news:> 3D1AD4B3.2020107@csical.com> …
I just read about this initiative on slashdot. I have never been
concerned about any of the so called “big brother” scenerios in the
past, but this thing really freaks me out.Not being one to put a lot of credence in things I read on /., I was
wondering if anyone here has any information to ease my fears ?Is this really as bad as it appears ? Is anyone here up on this thing ?
It looks pretty bad to me as well. But I am sure that Intel and
Microsoft managers have our best interests at heart. Just like the folks
at
Enron, Tyco and Worldcom!!Remember, “It isn’t paranoia, when they really are out to get you.”
It sounds really horrific to me too.
I think the quote is more like:
Just because your paranoid doesn’t mean they AREN’T out to get you!
My opinion is that if Intel and MS really do this, then there will just
generate demand and a market elsewhere. Do you remember all the fuss about
CPU id’s? If this gets out to privacy groups, there will be an uproar if it
has any real consequences.
Just my opinion
Kevin
“Rennie Allen” <rallen@csical.com> wrote in message
news:3D1AD4B3.2020107@csical.com…
I just read about this initiative on slashdot. I have never been
concerned about any of the so called “big brother” scenerios in the
past, but this thing really freaks me out.Not being one to put a lot of credence in things I read on /., I was
wondering if anyone here has any information to ease my fears ?Is this really as bad as it appears ? Is anyone here up on this thing ?
Rennie
A thought and a question.
First the though in relation to Kevin’s comment. I agree that us nerds will
look elsewhere. But most people won’t even consider buying a computer that
isn’t running MS Winblows because “All that software runs on it”. So even
if a different platform does offer a non-TCPA alternative, it is on good
unless someone else writes tons of software for it.
Now my question: So let’s say I but a computer to actually use to do work
(as opposed to web browsing, playing games, music, e-mailing friends. It
sounds like if my computer isn’t connected to the net then many/most of the
features that I paid for can’t be authenticated. (Gee, I can’t find the
question mark in there either. Am I missing something? {Oh, there it is.} )
“Kevin Stallard” <kevin@ffflyingrobots.com> wrote in message
news:affn35$hdk$1@inn.qnx.com…
My opinion is that if Intel and MS really do this, then there will just
generate demand and a market elsewhere. Do you remember all the fuss
about
CPU id’s? If this gets out to privacy groups, there will be an uproar if
it
has any real consequences.Just my opinion
Kevin
“Rennie Allen” <> rallen@csical.com> > wrote in message
news:> 3D1AD4B3.2020107@csical.com> …
I just read about this initiative on slashdot. I have never been
concerned about any of the so called “big brother” scenerios in the
past, but this thing really freaks me out.Not being one to put a lot of credence in things I read on /., I was
wondering if anyone here has any information to ease my fears ?Is this really as bad as it appears ? Is anyone here up on this thing ?
Rennie
“Rennie Allen” <rallen@csical.com> wrote in message
news:3D1B135C.5040106@csical.com…
Supposedly, if they follow through on the commitment to be able to turn
off TCPA, I’d be able to run another O/S, but that’s putting a lot of
trust in the fact that they’ll actually do it; and as web sites start
demanding TCPA authentication, I’ll be able to visit fewer and fewer web
sites (eventually none) as time goes by, which means my alternative is
what exactly ? A platform that doesn’t allow me to do anything useful
on the internet (because the web sites don’t care about the 5% of the
market that isn’t Wintel with TCPA - and M$ spinsters will convince them
that this 5% is largely composed of hackers who are just “troublemakers”
that no one would want on their site anyway) ?I don’t think it will effect most web sites unless they have secured pages.
Most web sites are advertisements. People want EVERYONE to see them, for
whatever reason. And don’t forget all those porn sites that get 1/20 th of
a cent for every exposure and anywhere from a penny to a dime for a click
through. They are not going to turn anyone away.
OK. Rennie, I agree with you.
So who do we start writing letters to to outlaw this thing?
“Rennie Allen” <rallen@csical.com> wrote in message
news:3D1B1EC1.8080204@csical.com…
The only thing M$ needs to make this catch-22 work, is to start with a
95% market share (which coincidentally is what they have). As I see it
the only thing that can foil their plan is if large numbers of people
with Windoze platforms disable TCPA, and don’t turn it back on the
first time they encounter a web site that says they must turn it on (one
of which will undoubtedly be the M$ web page where you have to go to
register your version of M$ Money - or Office, before it will work).Rennie
“Rennie Allen” <rallen@csical.com> wrote in message
news:3D1B2E0D.6000809@csical.com…
Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS) wrote:
OK. Rennie, I agree with you.So who do we start writing letters to to outlaw this thing?
As I see it there are 2 primary strategies.
U.S. government acting on behalf of the people (I wouldn’t bet the
farm on that one but it’s worth a shot) i.e. write you representative.the public (If the general public can be made to understand the
potential consequences of this, they can both pressure the government,
and disable TCPA on their computers - if they are allowed to - in spite
of how painful it might be).To get the message to the public, letters to the editor of your local
newspaper might be a good alternative (heck once TCPA is widely deployed
genuine newsprint might be the only way to be heard - as M$ might just
decide that emails and web pages denouncing TCPA, are “disruptive to
commerce” >The other thing to do, is to explain the potential consequences of
this thing to as many people as you can.I do think that the grassroots approach (i.e. start local) will be the
most effective.Rennie
I agree with starting at the grass roots level. My suggestion is this.
Most people will not understand what al of this really means. Someone
(maybe you), in the spare time, should draft two documents. The first
should be a simple (I.E. IN LAYMAN’S TERMS) explanation of why this is bad
for everyone. The second should be a template that people can freely copy,
sign and send to their state and federal governments. A third document that
gives the addresses of all US representatives and senators would also be
nice.
People are lazy (Hell I know I am). If you want them to get involved you
have to make it as easy as possible for them. Post these documents. I have
access to several large commercial mailing lists (both e-mail and US Postage
{but I probably won’t spend my own money on postage} ). I could easily
mass-mail thousands of documents to people and invite them to forward the
e-mail to everyone they know. What could it take? Maybe 24 hours before
everyone with an e-mail address receives it?
Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS) wrote:
“Rennie Allen” <> rallen@csical.com> > wrote in message
news:> 3D1B2E0D.6000809@csical.com> …Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS) wrote:
OK. Rennie, I agree with you.
So who do we start writing letters to to outlaw this thing?
As I see it there are 2 primary strategies.
U.S. government acting on behalf of the people (I wouldn’t bet the
farm on that one but it’s worth a shot) i.e. write you representative.the public (If the general public can be made to understand the
potential consequences of this, they can both pressure the government,
and disable TCPA on their computers - if they are allowed to - in spite
of how painful it might be).To get the message to the public, letters to the editor of your local
newspaper might be a good alternative (heck once TCPA is widely deployed
genuine newsprint might be the only way to be heard - as M$ might just
decide that emails and web pages denouncing TCPA, are “disruptive to
commerce” >The other thing to do, is to explain the potential consequences of
this thing to as many people as you can.I do think that the grassroots approach (i.e. start local) will be the
most effective.Rennie
I agree with starting at the grass roots level. My suggestion is this.
Most people will not understand what al of this really means. Someone
(maybe you), in the spare time, should draft two documents. The first
should be a simple (I.E. IN LAYMAN’S TERMS) explanation of why this is bad
for everyone. The second should be a template that people can freely copy,
sign and send to their state and federal governments. A third document that
gives the addresses of all US representatives and senators would also be
nice.People are lazy (Hell I know I am). If you want them to get involved you
have to make it as easy as possible for them. Post these documents. I have
access to several large commercial mailing lists (both e-mail and US Postage
{but I probably won’t spend my own money on postage} ). I could easily
mass-mail thousands of documents to people and invite them to forward the
e-mail to everyone they know. What could it take? Maybe 24 hours before
everyone with an e-mail address receives it?
I’m working on this, but for now, it seems we got a little help from
Cringely last week. See below. Pass this link on…
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20020627.html
Rennie
I’ve seen it running on iMac, but it is not straight install. You’ll have to
mess around quite a bit to get it running…
“Miguel Simon” <simon@ou.edu> wrote in message
news:3D2339C7.6020305@ou.edu…
Hi…
I wonder, does QNX RTP run on an Apple machine? In other words, if I go
and buy an Apple machine now, can I partition the drive and install a
stand alone copy of QNX RTP 6.2 NC ?Regards…
Miguel.
Rennie Allen wrote:
I just read about this initiative on slashdot. I have never been
concerned about any of the so called “big brother” scenerios in the
past, but this thing really freaks me out.Not being one to put a lot of credence in things I read on /., I was
wondering if anyone here has any information to ease my fears ?Is this really as bad as it appears ? Is anyone here up on this thing ?
Rennie
Hi…
I wonder, does QNX RTP run on an Apple machine? In other words, if I go
and buy an Apple machine now, can I partition the drive and install a
stand alone copy of QNX RTP 6.2 NC ?
Regards…
Miguel.
Rennie Allen wrote:
I just read about this initiative on slashdot. I have never been
concerned about any of the so called “big brother” scenerios in the
past, but this thing really freaks me out.Not being one to put a lot of credence in things I read on /., I was
wondering if anyone here has any information to ease my fears ?Is this really as bad as it appears ? Is anyone here up on this thing ?
Rennie
Old news. New headline.
I just thought I’d post this for anyone still following this issue.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer/0,39020387,39116902,00.htm
Bill Caroselli wrote:
Old news. New headline.
I just thought I’d post this for anyone still following this issue.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer/0,39020387,39116902,00.htm
Yeah,
I’ve got my application for immigration to North Korea under way, since
I wan’t to live in a place with less capacity to monitor my activities,
and control what I think and do 
“Rennie Allen” <rallen@csical.com> wrote in message
news:bm1a5j$l5n$1@inn.qnx.com…
Bill Caroselli wrote:
Old news. New headline.I just thought I’d post this for anyone still following this issue.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer/0,39020387,39116902,00.htm
Yeah,
I’ve got my application for immigration to North Korea under way, since
I wan’t to live in a place with less capacity to monitor my activities,
and control what I think and do >
Huh? What makes you beleive you are already in control of what you think
and do???
Mario Charest wrote:
Huh? What makes you beleive you are already in control of what you think
and do???
I know I’m in control, cuz, they can’t penetrate my tin foil hat, with
their mind probes 