somewhere made the decision to put them both on 1 CD, why. I do now
beleive
I meant to say “I do not beleive”
it was out of ignorance, it was most probably a customer driven decision.
If QSSL would be ‘customer driven’ we would have already a runtime CD!!
Are you customer driven Armin?
There are a lot of distributors asking for a runtime CD …
And? I think distributor get low priority while big OEM have high priority.
Armin Steinhoff <a-steinhoff@web.de> wrote:
sounds like caos. The marketing department is defining a product and a
other group is defining independingly it’s packaging?
That is not what I said. I said the the CEO would not be the one making the
decisions on what is (or is not) included in each package, so talking to the
CEO (who was up until recently also the owner) would not be as useful to you
as talking to the group that makes those actual decisions. I beleive that
is the marketing group, but I can’t say that for certain.
most people working for QSS that rarely, if ever, deal with installing
anything other than development environments.The marketing department has to do these decisions … not the low level
developers.
You missed my point again. My point was that very few of QSS employees
would ever want or need to install something other than a development seat.
As a result, they would never see the need for what you are requesting,
or even comprehend the possibility of not installing a full dev environment
as the “starting point”.
I don’t believe that customers have the intension to pay money for
improving the marketing of QSSL. They will simply talk to the owner of QSSL.
Again, you miss the point. The point I was making is that marketing has
failed to understand their customers in the past, and continues this trend
today. Without understanding the customers you have and how they use your
product, you can’t effectively market your product to new, prospective
customers. I wasn’t trying to imply that any existing customer would want
to directly finance improvements in marketing. Instead, I was pointing out
that the failure of the marketing department indicates that they don’t
understand existing customers (ie. YOU and I), which means they are not
capable of making reasonable decisions about packaging the various versions
of QNX. I’m explaining why they have screwed this up, please pay attention
when we are both bitching about the same thing! 
Cheers,
Camz.
–
Martin Zimmerman camz@passageway.com
Camz Software Enterprises www.passageway.com/camz/qnx/
QNX Programming & Consulting www.qnxzone.com
Here’s an interesting thought.
No one from QSS is volunteering any official thoughts or information to
this long thread.
A couple of years ago QSS hired a VP of PR. Then they tied his hands so
much the poor guy quit. He was never replaced.
What message does this send to the customer base?
Bill Caroselli wrote:
Here’s an interesting thought.
No one from QSS is volunteering any official thoughts or information to
this long thread.A couple of years ago QSS hired a VP of PR. Then they tied his hands so
much the poor guy quit. He was never replaced.What message does this send to the customer base?
There is a poll about the future of QNX at ‘qnxzone’:
25% believe that QNX will continue the way it has in the past
( what is in no way a very positive view …
That means 75% of the poll members expecting a very negative development
… that’s an other message to the QSSL marketing!
Armin
There is a poll about the future of QNX at ‘qnxzone’:
25% believe that QNX will continue the way it has in the past
( what is in no way a very positive view … >25% believe that QNX will continue to exist only as Harman specific OS
50% believe that QNX will disappear altogether as a productThat means 75% of the poll members expecting a very negative development
… that’s an other message to the QSSL marketing!
Huh? There is 12 votes, I’m surprise you would use this poll to make any
kind of argument. You can do better than that.
Armin
Bill Caroselli <qtps@earthlink.net> wrote:
A couple of years ago QSS hired a VP of PR. Then they tied his hands so
much the poor guy quit. He was never replaced.
Well, actually the guy that left still keeps up to date on the QNX scene,
and occasionally posts in these newsgroups. He might be reading this very
thread.
But get your facts right, he was the VP or Marketing, not PR and his
replacement was announced on qnx.com a short while later. The new VP of
Marketing is Dave Curley (http://www.qnx.com/news/pr_236_1.html).
Unlike his predecesor, he doesn’t appear to read the newsgroups or want to
interact with us.
Cheers,
Camz.
–
Martin Zimmerman camz@passageway.com
Camz Software Enterprises www.passageway.com/camz/qnx/
QNX Programming & Consulting www.qnxzone.com
camz@passageway.com wrote:
Bill Caroselli <> qtps@earthlink.net> > wrote:
A couple of years ago QSS hired a VP of PR. Then they tied his hands so
much the poor guy quit. He was never replaced.
Well, actually the guy that left still keeps up to date on the QNX scene,
and occasionally posts in these newsgroups. He might be reading this very
thread.But get your facts right, he was the VP or Marketing, not PR and his
replacement was announced on qnx.com a short while later. The new VP of
Marketing is Dave Curley (> http://www.qnx.com/news/pr_236_1.html> ).Unlike his predecesor, he doesn’t appear to read the newsgroups or want to
interact with us.
That press release says:
“Before QNX, Mr. Curley served as chief operating officer at Texar
Corporation, a security infrastructure software company. His duties
entailed managing the day-to-day operations of the company while also
identifying business strategy, target markets and potential business
partners, and forming strategic alliances.”
So let’s visit “http://www.texar.com/”.
“Texar is now Avalonworks. … redirecting… 404 Not Found”
But that’s just a bad link. There is an AvalonWorks at
“http://www.avalonworks.com/solutions/index.html”
“Avalon Works provides its clients with a constantly updated
knowledge base of significant trends, and an in-depth understanding of
client needs in specific sectors.”
They’re an Application Service Provider, one whose
main customer is apparently Canadian government agencies.
On the “News” page for Avalon Works, there hasn’t been a new
item since 2002.
Compare the Avalon Works mission statement at
http://www.avalonworks.com/aboutus/index.html
“We are honest and ethical in all our business dealings, starting with
how we treat each other. We keep our promises and admit our mistakes.
Our personal conduct ensures that Avalon Works name is always worthy of
trust.”
with that of AT&T at
http://www.att.com/hr/life/culture.html
“We are honest and ethical in all our business dealings, starting with
how we treat each other. We keep our promises and admit our mistakes.
Our personal conduct ensures that AT&T’s name is always worthy of trust.”
Any questions?
John Nagle
John Nagle wrote:
camz@passageway.com > wrote:
Bill Caroselli <> qtps@earthlink.net> > wrote:
A couple of years ago QSS hired a VP of PR. Then they tied his hands
so much the poor guy quit. He was never replaced.
Well, actually the guy that left still keeps up to date on the QNX scene,
and occasionally posts in these newsgroups. He might be reading this
very
thread.But get your facts right, he was the VP or Marketing, not PR and his
replacement was announced on qnx.com a short while later. The new VP of
Marketing is Dave Curley (> http://www.qnx.com/news/pr_236_1.html> ).Unlike his predecesor, he doesn’t appear to read the newsgroups or
want to
interact with us.
That press release says:“Before QNX, Mr. Curley served as chief operating officer at Texar
Corporation, a security infrastructure software company. His duties
entailed managing the day-to-day operations of the company while also
identifying business strategy, target markets and potential business
partners, and forming strategic alliances.”So let’s visit "> http://www.texar.com/> ".
“Texar is now Avalonworks. … redirecting… 404 Not Found”
But that’s just a bad link. There is an AvalonWorks at
"> http://www.avalonworks.com/solutions/index.html> "
“Avalon Works provides its clients with a constantly updated
knowledge base of significant trends, and an in-depth understanding of
client needs in specific sectors.”They’re an Application Service Provider, one whose
main customer is apparently Canadian government agencies.On the “News” page for Avalon Works, there hasn’t been a new
item since 2002.Compare the Avalon Works mission statement at
http://www.avalonworks.com/aboutus/index.html
“We are honest and ethical in all our business dealings, starting with
how we treat each other. We keep our promises and admit our mistakes.
Our personal conduct ensures that Avalon Works name is always worthy of
trust.”with that of AT&T at
http://www.att.com/hr/life/culture.html
“We are honest and ethical in all our business dealings, starting with
how we treat each other. We keep our promises and admit our mistakes.
Our personal conduct ensures that AT&T’s name is always worthy of trust.”Any questions?
Yes … what marketing-bubble-generator they have used?
Armin
John Nagle
“John Nagle” <nagle@downside.com> wrote in message
news:41C7BC3D.4000808@downside.com…
camz@passageway.com > wrote:
Bill Caroselli <> qtps@earthlink.net> > wrote:A couple of years ago QSS hired a VP of PR. Then they tied his hands so
much the poor guy quit. He was never replaced.
Well, actually the guy that left still keeps up to date on the QNX scene,
and occasionally posts in these newsgroups. He might be reading this
very
thread.But get your facts right, he was the VP or Marketing, not PR and his
replacement was announced on qnx.com a short while later. The new VP of
Marketing is Dave Curley (> http://www.qnx.com/news/pr_236_1.html> ).Unlike his predecesor, he doesn’t appear to read the newsgroups or want
to
interact with us.That press release says:
“Before QNX, Mr. Curley served as chief operating officer at Texar
Corporation, a security infrastructure software company. His duties
entailed managing the day-to-day operations of the company while also
identifying business strategy, target markets and potential business
partners, and forming strategic alliances.”So let’s visit "> http://www.texar.com/> ".
“Texar is now Avalonworks. … redirecting… 404 Not Found”
But that’s just a bad link. There is an AvalonWorks at
"> http://www.avalonworks.com/solutions/index.html> "
“Avalon Works provides its clients with a constantly updated knowledge
base of significant trends, and an in-depth understanding of client needs
in specific sectors.”They’re an Application Service Provider, one whose
main customer is apparently Canadian government agencies.On the “News” page for Avalon Works, there hasn’t been a new
item since 2002.Compare the Avalon Works mission statement at
http://www.avalonworks.com/aboutus/index.html
“We are honest and ethical in all our business dealings, starting with how
we treat each other. We keep our promises and admit our mistakes. Our
personal conduct ensures that Avalon Works name is always worthy of
trust.”with that of AT&T at
http://www.att.com/hr/life/culture.html
“We are honest and ethical in all our business dealings, starting with how
we treat each other. We keep our promises and admit our mistakes. Our
personal conduct ensures that AT&T’s name is always worthy of trust.”Any questions?
No but a comment. John you sound like a desperate journalist trying to find
something to print for tomorrows newpaper.
John Nagle
camz@passageway.com wrote:
cpc > Bill Caroselli <qtps@earthlink.net> wrote:
A couple of years ago QSS hired a VP of PR. Then they tied his hands so
much the poor guy quit. He was never replaced.
cpc > Well, actually the guy that left still keeps up to date on the QNX scene,
cpc > and occasionally posts in these newsgroups. He might be reading this very
cpc > thread.
cpc > But get your facts right, he was the VP or Marketing, not PR and his
cpc > replacement was announced on qnx.com a short while later. The new VP of
cpc > Marketing is Dave Curley (http://www.qnx.com/news/pr_236_1.html).
cpc > Unlike his predecesor, he doesn’t appear to read the newsgroups or want to
cpc > interact with us.
I don’t care what they called him. His job was to try to shut up us wacky
users. He’d listen to our complaints, try to get them addressed by QSS,
and then come back like David Spade and have to figure out some new and
clever way to say “No”.
Good detective work John
John Nagle <nagle@downside.com> wrote:
JN > camz@passageway.com wrote:
Bill Caroselli <> qtps@earthlink.net> > wrote:
A couple of years ago QSS hired a VP of PR. Then they tied his hands so
much the poor guy quit. He was never replaced.
Well, actually the guy that left still keeps up to date on the QNX scene,
and occasionally posts in these newsgroups. He might be reading this very
thread.But get your facts right, he was the VP or Marketing, not PR and his
replacement was announced on qnx.com a short while later. The new VP of
Marketing is Dave Curley (> http://www.qnx.com/news/pr_236_1.html> ).Unlike his predecesor, he doesn’t appear to read the newsgroups or want to
interact with us.
JN > That press release says:
JN > “Before QNX, Mr. Curley served as chief operating officer at Texar
JN > Corporation, a security infrastructure software company. His duties
JN > entailed managing the day-to-day operations of the company while also
JN > identifying business strategy, target markets and potential business
JN > partners, and forming strategic alliances.”
JN > So let’s visit “http://www.texar.com/”.
JN > “Texar is now Avalonworks. … redirecting… 404 Not Found”
JN > But that’s just a bad link. There is an AvalonWorks at
JN > “http://www.avalonworks.com/solutions/index.html”
JN > “Avalon Works provides its clients with a constantly updated
JN > knowledge base of significant trends, and an in-depth understanding of
JN > client needs in specific sectors.”
JN > They’re an Application Service Provider, one whose
JN > main customer is apparently Canadian government agencies.
JN > On the “News” page for Avalon Works, there hasn’t been a new
JN > item since 2002.
JN > Compare the Avalon Works mission statement at
JN > http://www.avalonworks.com/aboutus/index.html
JN > “We are honest and ethical in all our business dealings, starting with
JN > how we treat each other. We keep our promises and admit our mistakes.
JN > Our personal conduct ensures that Avalon Works name is always worthy of
JN > trust.”
JN > with that of AT&T at
JN > http://www.att.com/hr/life/culture.html
JN > “We are honest and ethical in all our business dealings, starting with
JN > how we treat each other. We keep our promises and admit our mistakes.
JN > Our personal conduct ensures that AT&T’s name is always worthy of trust.”
JN > Any questions?
JN > John Nagle
–
Bill Caroselli – Q-TPS Consulting
qtps@earthlink.net
Bill Caroselli wrote:
Good detective work John
Thanks.
I hate to be so negative. But there’s a real problem here.
QNX has great technology, but when the marketing end of the
company drives users nuts, it’s a problem. A big problem.
QNX was on the right track with the “Open QNX” effort.
QNX’s visibility was declining. Over a few years,
low visibility is a killer. Nobody knows how to use
your products, and even if you have a good technology,
nobody cares. Eventually, even your existing customers
phase you out. The Open QNX effort was starting to turn
that around.
Then the Open QNX effort was abandoned. That
seriously hurt QNX’s credibility. It also reduced
QNX’s visibility substantially.
Worse, this happened around the time that real-time
Linux variants stopped being a joke. There’s real
competition from the open source world now, with
corporate support.
Since the Harman acquisition, there’s been no credible
indication of QNX’s future direction. That sends a strong
message to users: develop an exit strategy. Immediately.
It’s not too late for Harman/QSSL to turn this around.
But it’s going to take more than happy talk press
releases. It will take something like a QNX 6.3NC that’s
as uncrippled as QNX 6.20NC, a modest level of support for
the Open QNX effort, and some outreach.
My own interest is robotics R&D. QNX is a great operating
system for that purpose. But when you have no idea if you’ll
be able to get the OS six months from now, it’s a very risky
choice.
John Nagle
Armin Steinhoff wrote:
John Nagle wrote:
camz@passageway.com > wrote:
Bill Caroselli <> qtps@earthlink.net> > wrote:
Compare the Avalon Works mission statement at
http://www.avalonworks.com/aboutus/index.html
with that of AT&T at
http://www.att.com/hr/life/culture.html
Any questions?
Yes … what marketing-bubble-generator they have used?
Microsoft’s mission statement, incidentally, was for years
“A computer on every desk, running Microsoft software”.
They had to change that, though. They achieved that goal.
John Nagle
John Nagle <nagle@overbot.com> wrote:
I hate to be so negative. But there’s a real problem here.
QNX has great technology, but when the marketing end of the
company drives users nuts, it’s a problem. A big problem.
I agree completely.
QNX has always had great technology, it’s the reason for the
company’s success. The problem as you point out though is that
their marketing is (and has been) either non-existant or a huge
failure.
Great technology does not guarantee success, you only have to
look to history and the Beta vs. VHS battle for proof of that.
There are other similiar stories.
Worse, this happened around the time that real-time
Linux variants stopped being a joke. There’s real
competition from the open source world now, with
corporate support.
This is also very true. QNX is so much nicer to work with for
embedded projects. I’ve tried Linux for somethings and the
experience can be very painful and extremely frustrating. It’s
a dream with QNX. Of course that doesn’t do you a damned bit
of good if no one has heard of QNX to even know to give it a
try. The contrast in mindshare between QNX and Linux is quite
dramatic… a good percentage of “normal” people (aka users)
have heard of Linux, whereas only a few geeks/techies have
ever heard of QNX.
It’s not just marketing though. The most dramatic changes that
are now impacting QNX’s credibility are how customer antagonistic
they have become. They charge more than ever for updates that
are slower to be released than ever, and most of the time they
take more away with each “upgrade” than they add. It’s not just
in the NC versions that features have been removed between 6.0,
6.1, 6.2, and now 6.3, it’s being done to the commercial (SE & PE)
versions as well.
Since the Harman acquisition, there’s been no credible
indication of QNX’s future direction. That sends a strong
message to users: develop an exit strategy. Immediately.
Absolutely. QSS needs to publish some form of roadmap. It
doesn’t need to have all the details that might give away
some competitive advantage, but they need SOMETHING to give
their existing customers some assurance that there is actually
some kind of plan for QNX’s future. Without that, people are
not going to choose QNX for new projects, why the hell would
you pick something that might not exist by the time you finish
your project?
It’s not too late for Harman/QSSL to turn this around.
But it’s going to take more than happy talk press
releases.
I think they need to start holding the user conferences once
again. If such events do nothing else, they give the customers
a chance to see that there really are others out there using
this stuff, which in turn boosts public confidence in QSS.
As you point out, this is something they desperately need at
this point, and it would also be an ideal opportunity to share
with their customers some of their roadmap for the future.
They actually need to launch some kind of ad campaign too, and
not make subtle mistakes like they did on the last one. (I
really don’t understand why they used “obsessed” instead of
“relentless”)… one has negative connotations, the other does
not. It’s subtle, but it’s the difference between a mediocre
campaign and a good or great one.
Cheers,
Camz.
–
Martin Zimmerman camz@passageway.com
Camz Software Enterprises www.passageway.com/camz/qnx/
QNX Programming & Consulting www.qnxzone.com
Jutta Steinhoff <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote:
Camz, Armin wanted to say that it’s not possible with official license
agreements. So there must have been a special agreement with QSSL for
the Amiga QSXL !!!
I don’t think so. Have you actually spoken to your sales reps about this?
If you read the license agreements you will actually discover that it
mentions that QNX can not be sold, only licensed. That also means that
it really does not matter if QSS sells your customer the runtime license
or if you do, QSS still provides the warranty on the OS components, not
you. (I seem to recall this being one of your concerns).
The runtime licesnses are not electronic.
They are a certificate or sticker. They are all official licensesWhen QSSL makes a special exception for one company it doesn’t mean that
this exception is valid for all other companies, too …
Actually, no, I don’t think this was a special exception. You and Armin
are sounding more and more like you don’t want a solution and only want
to complain about things. I really don’t think QSS is going to refuse to
let you sell a runtime license to someone without selling hardware to them
as well. Please re-read the EULA, it does not say you have to sell hardware,
it says you can sell just software for someone to run on a legally licensed
runtime. There is no reason why you can’t provide that runtime as well as
the license for it. I really don’t understand why you can’t do this, since
being able to do this also supports the sale of your software to customers,
it seems rediculous that you’d refuse to engage in an activity what would
support and possibly increase your business?
A 3rd Party has to sell his software separately w/o any QNX runtime
license.
No, the license says you can sell your software without a runtime license
provided you don’t distribute any components of the runtime environment
with your software.
When a 3rd Party has bought Momentics he is only allowed to resell
runtimes when they are pre-installed on hardware together with his 3rd
Party software.
Again, I did not see this in the EULA. I did see that you can sell your
software and a runtime environment for a certain target hardware setup,
but there was no requirement to also sell the target hardware. If you
create a runtime environment that is capable of working on multiple target
hardware configurations (much like the dev environment supports), then
that becomes your “target hardware”. If you actually break-down what
the self-hosted install does you will see that the entire boot script
sequence is essentially a custom embedded target. There is no requirement
for a runtime environmnt to execute /etc/config/sysint, and then later
execute /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit and /etc/rc.d/rc.local. In fact, when you
build your own embedded target you typically DON’T run those. (just
so you don’t take this wrong, the point I am making here is that even
the Momentics dev seat install is an example of an embedded target
configuration).
Our customers e.g. who are working in all kind of industrial automation
up to embedded systems are using fieldbus systems with different APIs or
different programming tools with MS based workbenches and QNX Target
systems. They are assembling their hardware themselves according their
requirements. Most of them use standard x86 hardware.
Nothing wrong with that, there is no reason why you can’t create your own
runtime installation CD that installs only the OS components required for
your software and sell it to the customer for the cost of the runtime
plus your own margin.
- In the QNX4 days when the runtimes were delivered on floppy disks it
was possible to resell also runtime licenses when you have sold already
a full QNX development system to the customer … but we had often to
justify to the QNX-Sales why a few customers wanted all out of one hand
and didn’t want to buy their software from various sources!!!
Okay, I am missing something here… You are saying that your customers
want to be able to buy from one source, and yet you have been bitching
that QSS won’t sell them runtimes directly. WTF? Sounds like your
customers want to buy their runtimes from you as well as your software.
QSS has no issue with selling you runtimes, so what the heck is your
actual problem?
With the license certificates instead of software on media it’s
impossible to resell Momentics even when you are doing a full project.
Huh? Why not? You used to hand them a floppy, now you hand them a
piece of paper. What’s the difference? You are still handing them
something.
You can’t sign the contract on behalf of your customer.
There is no contract to sign. They are bound by the QNX EULA, but
you never actually sign that thing. If you really want to just add
a script in your install scripts for the runtime that spits out the
EULA and asks them to agree or refuse it. If they refuse it, you
abort the install, if they agree you proceed. It’s not rocket
science. The fact that there IS NOT an electronic component is a
benefit to you, since it means you don’t have to produce each of your
custom runtime CDs with a unique license key, you don’t put any
keys in it, you just sell them a CD and the runtime license certificate.
It’s pretty simple.
The fundamental reality though is that unlike windows, people don’t just
go out and buy QNX without some very specific software that they want to
run on it.True, because of QNX alone makes no sense >
But the customer will have 2 sources for buying:
- QSSx for buying Momentics and signing the contract
- 3rd Parties for buying needed specific QNX based software
Why would they buy Momentics? That’s a development environment, not
a runtime environment.
You are missing the very simple fact that QSS does not sell to
end-users. They sell to developers (and 3rd parties are
developers). So the model is that end-users buy their runtimes
from the 3rd parties as well as buying their application from
the 3rd party. It’s not that complicated.
We have customers who have already decided for QNX for good reason and
then they are looking for QNX support for their hardware configuration.
It’s nothing special, at least in industrial automation.
No, it’s not… but support for their hardware config is not the same
as support for the OS. QSS doesn’t provide support for hardware configs
at all. So why are you even mentioning it?
Can you imagine what happens when a customer wants to buy DACHSview for
QNX and we have to send him for buying QNX Runtimes to the QNX sales
channel?
Ah, see there’s the problem. You DON’T have to send him to QNX sales,
you can sell him the runtime yourself. I have no idea why you seem to
think you can’t do this?
realtime Targets. It’s currently not possible for a pot. customers to
buy ONLY Runtimes for a x86 Target PC.
You’re being silly again. We already established that a potential
customer wouldn’t buy just a runtime, even you agreed that it makes
no sense for them to do so. Which means there are only two reasons
to buy a QNX runtime: 1) to develop apps on, in which case you buy
Momentics and it comes with a runtime, or 2) to run a 3rd party app,
in which case you are expected to buy a runtime from the 3rd party
as well if you don’t already have one. The only reason you would
already have one is if you had already bought a dev seat or some
other 3rd party software previously.
There are no tools for creating Runtime distributions!
Sure there are. Runtime envirionments are no different than target
environments. There are entire chapters and tutorials on how to
do it.
again, 3rd Parties are only allowed to resell pre-installed runtimes
from a bought Momentics system. In that case, you can give
an_additional_CD to your customer with your software incl. the QNX runtime!
Go re-read the license agreement, or better yet, talk to a sales rep
about it. I think your issue comes from mis-interpreting the legalese
that the license is written in more than anything else.
The legal license model from QSSL doesn’t allow to build a QNX runtime
and resell it on CD together with a license sticker.
Sure it does. It just stipulates that they will only sell the license
stickers to someone that owns a dev seat, that’s all. That would be
you in this case. Basically, owning a dev seat more or less makes you
a distributor/VAR for QNX runtime licenses.
OTOH, who would be responsible for that burned and sold runtime?
QSSL don’t know what you have burned and can’t give warranty!
Again, GO READ THE BLOODY LICENSE. You don’t actually sell QNX or
the runtime, you sell the license. QSS still provides warranty for
the licensed components, not you.
QNX is very modular, so what’s the problem to offer Runtime Bundles on
CD, too???
The problem is that there is no standard runtime environment. Your
appliation requires a specific configuration (yes, I know that that
configuration on x86 hardware can be quite broad), but “x86 w/BIOS”
is still the specifics of your configuration, it doesn’t matter that
your configuration just happens to include standard PCs.
No problem to buy the hardware, drivers and SoftPLC.
But at the end, buying a QNX Runtime is the knock-out!
…only because you refuse to sell it to them and are insisting that
they purchase it from QSS directly (when QSS expects them to buy it
through you).
Tell a customer who wants a SCADA or SoftPLC for MS that he has to buy a
complete MS development system in order to be allowed to install a MS
Runtime…
Ah, but MS’s sales model includes selling to end-users. QSS’s does not.
MS only supports x86 w/BIOS hardware configurations, and even then, as
I am sure you have encountered, not all hardware configurations are
supported directly from MS. It’s different with QNX, since QNX can run
on the same hardware as MS but it can also run on a lot more hardware
than MS, and most of that other hardware has no such standards as what
exist in the x86 PC world. That makes it virtually impossible for QSS
to have a single runtime that will work for all their possible customers.
The reality is that in order to keep runtimes at reasonable prices, they
can’t actually provide any kind of support for installation of those
runtimes. How many customers would be willing to pay $1200 in support
for a $120 runtime license? If we arbitratily say that one hour of
tech support from QSS is worth $120, I think you can see that it can
easily cost QSS more than 1 hour’s worth of support if a customer has
any issues installing on their target hardware.
Please understand that QSSL is ignoring a growing market segment and is
loosing market shares in industrial automation. May be the embedded
market is enough for them?
You are mistakenly separating industrial automation and embedded. The
reality is that industrial automation is a subset of the embedded market.
PLC controllers, CANbus, Profibus, Fieldbus, and modbus are hardly what
would be considered “consumer” level products. Every IA system IS
an embedded system.
What you want sounds like you would like to be able to sell helium, but
you don’t want to be responsible for selling the containers to put it
in.nonsense!
Exactly how your complaint/argument comes across!
When the Container is Momentics and the Runtime would be Helium it’s not
meeting the situation…
The container is the OS, the propane is your app. You can’t sell your
app if they don’t have the container already. You can sell them your
app and a container though, which solves the problem.
There is no real market for a commercial stand-alone QNX runtime.
You are completely wrong!!!
There was a market for QNX 4 Runtimes, and there is also a market for
QNX 6 runtimes!
No, there is a market for the 3rd party apps, they just happen to require
the OS. You have already agreed that there is no reason for a customer
to buy QNX if they aren’t buying your app (or someone else’s) too.
The solution to your problem exists, you just need to make the effort
yourselves. Your refusal to do so is NOT QSS’s problem.
Cheers,
Camz.
–
Martin Zimmerman camz@passageway.com
Camz Software Enterprises www.passageway.com/camz/qnx/
QNX Programming & Consulting www.qnxzone.com
John Nagle wrote:
Bill Caroselli wrote:
Good detective work John
Thanks.I hate to be so negative. But there’s a real problem here.
QNX has great technology, but when the marketing end of the
company drives users nuts, it’s a problem. A big problem.
True … absolutely TRUE.
If the request for a product is low … the first step to do is to lower
the price of it. That’s a simple rule of the market …
But QSSL makes in such a situation QNX6 much more expensive by
decreasing the functionality of the base product and putting the removed
functionality into additional expensive TDKs or SDKs.
That means the marketing of QSSL seems not to know the simplest rules of
the market.
That’s the best way to loose customers and market share!
Customer unfrendly product packaging is an other problem.
These guys are simply to lazy to build runtime modules or basic runtime
systems on CDs and the appropriate installation tools.
The customer get simply a license sticker and has to fiddle around
manually to get all licensed modules … but these modules and theire
dependencies are not defined or documented !!
That’s simply the killer called ‘weak customer orientation’ !!
Regards
Armin
QNX was on the right track with the “Open QNX” effort.
QNX’s visibility was declining. Over a few years,
low visibility is a killer. Nobody knows how to use
your products, and even if you have a good technology,
nobody cares. Eventually, even your existing customers
phase you out. The Open QNX effort was starting to turn
that around.Then the Open QNX effort was abandoned. That
seriously hurt QNX’s credibility. It also reduced
QNX’s visibility substantially.Worse, this happened around the time that real-time
Linux variants stopped being a joke. There’s real
competition from the open source world now, with
corporate support.Since the Harman acquisition, there’s been no credible
indication of QNX’s future direction. That sends a strong
message to users: develop an exit strategy. Immediately.It’s not too late for Harman/QSSL to turn this around.
But it’s going to take more than happy talk press
releases. It will take something like a QNX 6.3NC that’s
as uncrippled as QNX 6.20NC, a modest level of support for
the Open QNX effort, and some outreach.My own interest is robotics R&D. QNX is a great operating
system for that purpose. But when you have no idea if you’ll
be able to get the OS six months from now, it’s a very risky
choice.
John Nagle
camz@passageway.com wrote:
Jutta Steinhoff <> j-steinhoff@web.de> > wrote:
Camz, Armin wanted to say that it’s not possible with official license
agreements. So there must have been a special agreement with QSSL for
the Amiga QSXL !!!I don’t think so. Have you actually spoken to your sales reps about this?
Camz, do you think I’ve a vivid imagination ???
Please notice that I know about what I’m talking and that I spent much
time for years with talking with QSSL, subs and distributors…
Also, please notice that I’m not talking only about the enduser license
agreement.
There are also conditions for 3rd parties as well as for OEMs and VARs
!!! They are binding when reselling QSSL products to endusers.
If you read the license agreements you will actually discover that it
mentions that QNX can not be sold, only licensed.
Please read the EULA from other software or OS vendors and you will see
that standard software products are nomally licensed, not sold !!!
That also means that
it really does not matter if QSS sells your customer the runtime license
or if you do, QSS still provides the warranty on the OS components, not
you. (I seem to recall this being one of your concerns).
You should talk to a QNX sales persons who knows how licenses are
handled legally and who warrents what…
The runtime licesnses are not electronic.
They are a certificate or sticker. They are all official licensesWhen QSSL makes a special exception for one company it doesn’t mean that
this exception is valid for all other companies, too …Actually, no, I don’t think this was a special exception.
You “think” but you don’t know…
I can tell you only that it’s not conform with the official license policy.
You and Armin
are sounding more and more like you don’t want a solution and only want
to complain about things. I really don’t think QSS is going to refuse to
let you sell a runtime license to someone without selling hardware to them
as well.
Again, you “think” but you don’t know !!!
I like to base my statements on facts… and it’s important for us as
company to handle licenses in a legal way and not how we would just like
it to do …
Just this month we had a presentation at the European QNX Distributor
Conference and met European distributors as well as employees from QSSL.
If your statements should be right, all wasted much time in Hannover for
nothing and all complains from the distributors reg. licensing and RT
CDs e.g. were based on their fantasie ??
It’s their day by day business and they should know better than you…
I really would like an official statement from a QSSL employee in this
NG in order to stop license discussions based on wrong assumptions or
interpretations.
Camz, if you want, you can give me a call or your phone number, so we
can talk at phone. I think license discussions in detail are boring for
most readers and w/o a clear statement from QSSL it’s like ping pong…
Cheers,
Jutta
camz@passageway.com wrote:
John Nagle <> nagle@overbot.com> > wrote:
I hate to be so negative. But there’s a real problem here.
QNX has great technology, but when the marketing end of the
company drives users nuts, it’s a problem. A big problem.
I agree completely.
me too!
[clip…]
It’s not too late for Harman/QSSL to turn this around.
But it’s going to take more than happy talk press
releases.
I think they need to start holding the user conferences once
again. If such events do nothing else, they give the customers
a chance to see that there really are others out there using
this stuff, which in turn boosts public confidence in QSS.
Camz, for that reason we (STEINHOFF and IDEAsoft, who are bought from
Harman-Becker in the meantime) started the European QNX-Night in 2002
Last year QSSL was the main sponsor and we appreciate very much that the
4th QNX-Night in Nuremberg will be the 25th Anniversary Night It
will be organized in cooperation with QSSL !
Date: Feb. 22nd, 2005
it’s the first evening of the Embedded World
For all, who are in Europe, I recommend to try to join this QNX
community event. It’s a great chance to meet other QNXers.
BTW, Dan Dodge is going to talk about the past and the future of QNX.
So, everyone who wants, has also a chance to meet him in person at the
Embedded World 2005 as well as at the 25th Anniversary Night, which
takes place in Barfusser, a historical brewery.
Just a tip for all who don’t want to miss the 25th Anniversary Night:
you should book already a hotel at www.hrs.de. It’s hard to get a hotel
in last minute.
I look forward to see known and unknown faces…
Cheers,
Jutta
camz@passageway.com wrote:
Jutta Steinhoff <> j-steinhoff@web.de> > wrote:
Camz, Armin wanted to say that it’s not possible with official license
agreements. So there must have been a special agreement with QSSL for
the Amiga QSXL !!!
I don’t think so. Have you actually spoken to your sales reps about this?
If you read the license agreements you will actually discover that it
mentions that QNX can not be sold, only licensed.
^^^^^^^^^
That also means that
it really does not matter if QSS sells your customer the runtime license
or if you do,
QSSL doesn’t sell software … as you mentioned above!
Or is not true?
QSS still provides the warranty on the OS components, not
you. (I seem to recall this being one of your concerns).
No … you have to give the warranty that the contents of YOUR QNX
distribution CD is correct, that means YOUR software configuration is
working.
How can you do that? The components of QNX and their dependencies are
not documented. If somethings went wrong … QSSL can always blame you
for that
The runtime licesnses are not electronic.
They are a certificate or sticker. They are all official licenses
When QSSL makes a special exception for one company it doesn’t mean that
this exception is valid for all other companies, too …
Actually, no, I don’t think this was a special exception. You and Armin
are sounding more and more like you don’t want a solution and only want
to complain about things.
That’s plain nonsense.
I really don’t think
What means you ‘really don’t think’ ? What YOU ‘think’ has no meaning …
QSS is going to refuse to
let you sell a runtime license to someone without selling hardware to them
as well. Please re-read the EULA, it does not say you have to sell hardware,
it says you can sell just software for someone to run on a legally licensed
runtime.
(q) “Runtime Components” means any Software components that are intended
to be integrated into,
and to be distributed as an integral part of, Target Systems
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There is no reason why you can’t provide that runtime as well as
the license for it. I really don’t understand why you can’t do this, since
being able to do this also supports the sale of your software to customers,
it seems rediculous that you’d refuse to engage in an activity what would
support and possibly increase your business?
Increase our business?? With low margine by ‘selling’ of QNX and giving
warrenty in place of QSSL?? What a joke …
A 3rd Party has to sell his software separately w/o any QNX runtime
license.
No, the license says you can sell your software without a runtime license
provided you don’t distribute any components of the runtime environment
with your software.
That’s what Jutta said!
When a 3rd Party has bought Momentics he is only allowed to resell
runtimes when they are pre-installed on hardware together with his 3rd
Party software.
Again, I did not see this in the EULA.
Doesn’t matter … you can read and believe what you want
[clip …]
You can’t sign the contract on behalf of your customer.
There is no contract to sign.
If you sell something … YOU have a contract with YOUR customer, rigth?
They are bound by the QNX EULA,
No … they are bound to your contract.
[clip …]
The fundamental reality though is that unlike windows, people don’t just
go out and buy QNX without some very specific software that they want to
run on it.
True, because of QNX alone makes no sense >
But the customer will have 2 sources for buying:
- QSSx for buying Momentics and signing the contract
- 3rd Parties for buying needed specific QNX based software
Why would they buy Momentics? That’s a development environment, not
a runtime environment.
Yes … but can he buy a runtime license + software from QSSL??
You are missing the very simple fact that QSS does not sell to
end-users.
Wrong, QSSL is selling a lot of QNX4 runtimes to end-users!!
We know a lot of them … and they pay a lot of money.
They sell to developers (and 3rd parties are
developers). So the model is that end-users buy their runtimes
from the 3rd parties as well as buying their application from
the 3rd party. It’s not that complicated.
And the point is: this isn’t accepted by the market!!
Ask the distributors!!
We have customers who have already decided for QNX for good reason and
then they are looking for QNX support for their hardware configuration.
It’s nothing special, at least in industrial automation.
No, it’s not… but support for their hardware config is not the same
as support for the OS. QSS doesn’t provide support for hardware configs
at all.
Are you crazy?? What is QSSL offering for the selfhosted x86 Momentics
environment?? Are there no BSPs offered from QSSL???
So why are you even mentioning it?
Can you imagine what happens when a customer wants to buy DACHSview for
QNX and we have to send him for buying QNX Runtimes to the QNX sales
channel?
Ah, see there’s the problem.
Really ??
That’s now the point to stop that silly discussion …
Armin
John Nagle wrote:
That press release says:
“Before QNX, Mr. Curley served as chief operating officer at Texar
Corporation, a security infrastructure software company. His duties
entailed managing the day-to-day operations of the company while also
identifying business strategy, target markets and potential business
partners, and forming strategic alliances.”
I worked with Dave at Texar (I was the technical publications department).
So let’s visit "> http://www.texar.com/> ".
“Texar is now Avalonworks. … redirecting… 404 Not Found”
Texar lost VC funding and went under; the CEO ran for the hills, and
Dave was put in charge of shutting down the company, lucky guy.
The still-warm remains of Texar were bought by Avalonworks, mostly to
get our office space and our hardware.
I was laid off from Avalonworks while looking for a new job; the
“corporate atmosphere” at that place was not to my liking.
But that’s just a bad link. There is an AvalonWorks at
[… Avalonworks …]
They’re an Application Service Provider, one whose
main customer is apparently Canadian government agencies.
True. They also own an ISP or two (IGS here in town).
“We are honest and ethical in all our business dealings, starting with
how we treat each other. We keep our promises and admit our mistakes.
Our personal conduct ensures that Avalon Works name is always worthy of
trust.”
That wasn’t my take on the company while I was there, but I might be
biased.
–
Chris Herborth (cherborth@qnx.com)
Never send a monster to do the work of an evil scientist.