The Consultant point of View

“Bill Caroselli” <qtps@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a3nqng$gp$1@inn.qnx.com
snip

There is an argument for abstracting the OS out of existance. Providing
the
following conditions are true:

  1. you don’t care about the reliability of the OS
  2. you don’t require any real-time performance from the OS
  3. you intend to code most of the OS responsibities into your application
  4. you intend to hire programmers that aren’t specialists in anything
  5. you want to port your application to as many platforms as possible
    without regard to OS

I’m guessing that if someone is develloping tanks, it’s ultimately for the
military. What the hell. If you can afford to spend $125 for a hammer
and
$650 for a toilet seat then how can you possibly be disappointed by all of
the development efforts necessary to develope platform independant code.

Of course, my opinion may be slightly biased.

Bill Caroselli – 1(626) 824-7983
Q-TPS Consulting
QTPS@EarthLink.net

Abstracting the OS is like abstracting the foundation of your building or
the pilings of your bridge. But, Hey given the state of “Design” these days
are we ready fot he "one size fits all skyscraper support system.

Pat

“Kevin Stallard” <kevin@ffflyingrobots.com> wrote in message
news:a3nij3$oi7$1@inn.qnx.com

Alec
The company has standardized on VxWorks and their home grown “OE” layer
that
allows them to write code on an NT box and then re-compile on VxWorks. I
don’t quite undrestand why this is so desirable, but they think this is
the
way to go. The thing that I realized is that they do not care about
underlying OS architecture, they actually want to abstract it out of
existance. I don’t understand this. Seems to me that part of a products
success depends on the OS. It seems to me that there are lot of people
who
don’t think that way. Why?

After seeing all the discussions here, I think this is an important
question
to answer.

Hehe, somebody noticed, finally. Yes, that is reality of life in pretty much
any larger development organisation. Here is why (I think) that happens:

  1. Larger companies have to deal with constant rotation of people. They come
    and they go. All of them have different background and you can’t just keep
    looking for ones with QNX background. When you have project and budget, you
    also have deadlines. Have to fill positions fast enough and have to be able
    to cope with people leaving. So design is made assuming ‘generic’ pool of
    developers. That means they don’t like to be tied to some obscure OS,
    because it makes employees unique (i.e., untouchable).

  2. Experience with problem area most of time considered more important by
    employers than experience with an OS. Customers are not interested in
    elegance of underlying architecture. They are interested in features and
    reliability and in many cases reliability comes in form of hardware
    redundancy anyway. QNX is not even good at handling hardware redundancy.

  3. Majority of developers are well aware of point (2) so they prefer to
    remain blissfully ignorant to OS design and any low-level interaction with
    OS, because most of employers would not be interested in that. No incentive
    to learn those things.

  4. I don’t think majority of programmers even have adequate education to
    appreciate elegance of OS architecture. There is hell of a lot of people who
    are just ‘generic C/C++ programmers’. Concepts like IPC, threading,
    synchronisation, et cetera are hard enough to understand and there is not
    too many people willing to dig into them especially given the point (2). I
    would not believe that, but I had on several occasions to deal with people
    ‘synchronising’ threads using ‘sleep()’ or even priorities (just priorities,
    not FIFO scheduling).

Generally speaking, concept of ‘optimalness’ is different for large scale
projects. Technically optimal solutions can be not at all optimal
business-wise and those sides have to be balanced. Fine-tuned management
also does not really work for large organisation, they use something what
I’d call ‘statistical methods’ of management. I.e., methods which make some
(if less than optimal) impact on majority of employees, statistically
speaking.

  • igor

“Igor Kovalenko” <kovalenko@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:a3nui5$31g$1@inn.qnx.com

  1. Experience with problem area most of time considered more important by
    employers than experience with an OS. Customers are not interested in
    elegance of underlying architecture. They are interested in features and
    reliability and in many cases reliability comes in form of hardware
    redundancy anyway. QNX is not even good at handling hardware redundancy.

I disagree that QNX is not good at handeling hardware redundancy. I have

developed many client server models where there were redundant servers. The
servers would mirror each others data. Clients would load balance and
auto-reconnect to the othr server in the event of a server failure. All of
this was transparant to the underlying application. The user just knew he
was connected to a high availability server.

\

Bill Caroselli – 1(626) 824-7983
Q-TPS Consulting
QTPS@EarthLink.net

Bill Caroselli <qtps@earthlink.net> wrote:

“Igor Kovalenko” <> kovalenko@attbi.com> > wrote in message
news:a3nui5$31g$> 1@inn.qnx.com> …


2. Experience with problem area most of time considered more important by
employers than experience with an OS. Customers are not interested in
elegance of underlying architecture. They are interested in features and
reliability and in many cases reliability comes in form of hardware
redundancy anyway. QNX is not even good at handling hardware redundancy.

I disagree that QNX is not good at handeling hardware redundancy. I have
developed many client server models where there were redundant servers. The
servers would mirror each others data. Clients would load balance and
auto-reconnect to the othr server in the event of a server failure. All of
this was transparant to the underlying application. The user just knew he
was connected to a high availability server.

Maybe Igor could elaborate on what he meant? What do you mean, Igor, by
“not even good at handling hardware redundancy”?

Cheers,
-RK


Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices +1 613 599 8316.
Realtime Systems Architecture, Books, Video-based and Instructor-led
Training and Consulting at www.parse.com.
Email my initials at parse dot com.

Bill Caroselli wrote:

“Igor Kovalenko” <> kovalenko@attbi.com> > wrote in message
news:a3nui5$31g$> 1@inn.qnx.com> …


2. Experience with problem area most of time considered more important by
employers than experience with an OS. Customers are not interested in
elegance of underlying architecture. They are interested in features and
reliability and in many cases reliability comes in form of hardware
redundancy anyway. QNX is not even good at handling hardware redundancy.

I disagree that QNX is not good at handeling hardware redundancy. I have
developed many client server models where there were redundant servers.

Redundant client/server configurations are different to hardware
redundancy.

IMHO … support of hardware redundancy has nothing to do with core
services of an operating system. There are a lot of proprietary
redundant pieces of hardware out there which can’t be supported by
default in a COTS operating system.

But in general … it should be much easier to implement OS support for
redundant hardware under QNX6 as for any other OS.

Armin


The
servers would mirror each others data. Clients would load balance and
auto-reconnect to the othr server in the event of a server failure. All of
this was transparant to the underlying application. The user just knew he
was connected to a high availability server.


Bill Caroselli – 1(626) 824-7983
Q-TPS Consulting
QTPS@EarthLink.net

Using a redundant box is not always an option, sometimes you need to
hot-swap hardware within one and QNX won’t give you much in that department.
Try swapping a hard drive :wink:

  • igor

“Bill Caroselli” <qtps@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a3ot64$p5n$1@inn.qnx.com

“Igor Kovalenko” <> kovalenko@attbi.com> > wrote in message
news:a3nui5$31g$> 1@inn.qnx.com> …


2. Experience with problem area most of time considered more important
by
employers than experience with an OS. Customers are not interested in
elegance of underlying architecture. They are interested in features and
reliability and in many cases reliability comes in form of hardware
redundancy anyway. QNX is not even good at handling hardware redundancy.

I disagree that QNX is not good at handeling hardware redundancy. I have
developed many client server models where there were redundant servers.
The
servers would mirror each others data. Clients would load balance and
auto-reconnect to the othr server in the event of a server failure. All
of
this was transparant to the underlying application. The user just knew he
was connected to a high availability server.

\

Bill Caroselli – 1(626) 824-7983
Q-TPS Consulting
QTPS@EarthLink.net

Igor Kovalenko wrote:

“Kevin Stallard” <> kevin@ffflyingrobots.com> > wrote in message
news:a3nij3$oi7$> 1@inn.qnx.com> …
Alec
The company has standardized on VxWorks and their home grown “OE” layer
that
allows them to write code on an NT box and then re-compile on VxWorks. I
don’t quite undrestand why this is so desirable, but they think this is
the
way to go. The thing that I realized is that they do not care about
underlying OS architecture, they actually want to abstract it out of
existance. I don’t understand this. Seems to me that part of a products
success depends on the OS. It seems to me that there are lot of people
who
don’t think that way. Why?

After seeing all the discussions here, I think this is an important
question
to answer.

Hehe, somebody noticed, finally. Yes, that is reality of life in pretty much
any larger development organisation.

This is also a reality of life for all smaller companies which have to
deal with multiplatform applications and heterogenous networked computer
configurations.

Igor, don’t see the reality only through your (big) MOTOROLA glasses :wink:

Customers are in general interested in APPLICABLE technologies … they
are not interested in small interrupt latencies if a good internet
broswer is requested (IA).

It is just a simple story … your can’t sell performance numbers if the
rest of an OS isn’t applicable.

Armin



Here is why (I think) that happens:

  1. Larger companies have to deal with constant rotation of people. They come
    and they go. All of them have different background and you can’t just keep
    looking for ones with QNX background. When you have project and budget, you
    also have deadlines. Have to fill positions fast enough and have to be able
    to cope with people leaving. So design is made assuming ‘generic’ pool of
    developers. That means they don’t like to be tied to some obscure OS,
    because it makes employees unique (i.e., untouchable).

  2. Experience with problem area most of time considered more important by
    employers than experience with an OS. Customers are not interested in
    elegance of underlying architecture. They are interested in features and
    reliability and in many cases reliability comes in form of hardware
    redundancy anyway. QNX is not even good at handling hardware redundancy.

  3. Majority of developers are well aware of point (2) so they prefer to
    remain blissfully ignorant to OS design and any low-level interaction with
    OS, because most of employers would not be interested in that. No incentive
    to learn those things.

  4. I don’t think majority of programmers even have adequate education to
    appreciate elegance of OS architecture. There is hell of a lot of people who
    are just ‘generic C/C++ programmers’. Concepts like IPC, threading,
    synchronisation, et cetera are hard enough to understand and there is not
    too many people willing to dig into them especially given the point (2). I
    would not believe that, but I had on several occasions to deal with people
    ‘synchronising’ threads using ‘sleep()’ or even priorities (just priorities,
    not FIFO scheduling).

Generally speaking, concept of ‘optimalness’ is different for large scale
projects. Technically optimal solutions can be not at all optimal
business-wise and those sides have to be balanced. Fine-tuned management
also does not really work for large organisation, they use something what
I’d call ‘statistical methods’ of management. I.e., methods which make some
(if less than optimal) impact on majority of employees, statistically
speaking.

  • igor

Igor Kovalenko <kovalenko@attbi.com> wrote:

Using a redundant box is not always an option, sometimes you need to
hot-swap hardware within one and QNX won’t give you much in that department.
Try swapping a hard drive > :wink:

Actually I did once. Even though eide drives are not supposed to
be hot-swappable :wink:

I plugged in the ribbon cable, plugged in the power, started the eide
driver, and mounted the partitions.

Don’t try this at home :slight_smile:

Dave

Hey guys,

Look, we have a fairly serious problem here and it isn’t weather or not the
OS will support hardware redundancy (yikes! this will start yet another
thread off point)

Igor’s overall point is well taken I think. Big organizations don’t like
risk. Having to place their trust in a few people with specialized
knowledge to make something work is a big risk.

I remember when I first learned that it wasn’t more than 200 years ago when
the concept of making all the same pieces for a product was first
introduced. A firearm made by the same company had many if not all parts
that were custom for each gun. Then somebody came around and decided that a
model ought to have all parts interchangeable with another gun of the same
model.

Then a long time later Henry Ford introduced the assembly line. Your car
could be any color as long as it was black philosophy. It worked.

Those entrusted with the management of somebody else’s money believe that
the more generic the process, the less risk they take. I think this is what
we are battling.

I worked for a couple of months with my brother. He was the technical vp of
a internet based sourcing company. They were working on an internet
solution that would tie clothes designers with manufactures. They also
tried to use the generic approach and chose to use a set of tools because
there were a lot of developers that had knowledge of them and everyone was
doing it so it had to be safe. They failed in part because the technology
was not fast enough and had problems they could not find and in part because
they did not have competent people working on the project. He called me in
(too late to make any real difference) so that I could ask the tough
questions because I understood why the technology wasn’t working.

My point is that it seems managers are somehow able to justify failure
easier when, on a technical level, they use stuff that everyone else is
using. It’s when they use stuff that isn’t well known and they fail that
they have nightmares. It is a strange phenomenon to me.

I’ve come to the following conclusions.

  1. Big business isn’t going to pay attention to QNX any time soon. If you
    want to stick with QNX forget them.

  2. Mangers and CEOs of big corporations are sheep and while they seem
    invincible, they are really very vulnerable. They are people too, you know.

  3. Big corporations die if they do not pay attention to detail. My dad
    flies for Continental airlines. Continental has really gotten their crap
    together and has become a very well run company. United Airlines is a hog,
    its dying, yet it was once thought to be invincible. The good guys can win
    out.

IBM was another example of a “if you choose them you will still have a job
when the project fails”. I think our currently big players will also go and
their vulnerabilities will be made known and well understood at some point
in the future. More windows of opportunity will arise.

  1. If you want to continue to work with these cool technologies, you will
    have to design, market, produce your own products (maybe in colaberation
    with others of like mind) that compete with other devices or do something
    new that doesn’t exist yet. To rely on QNX’s ability to brand their product
    well enough isn’t sufficient we will have to take some matters in our own
    hands.

  2. The thing that makes the economy work is not big business, it is the
    individuals who have a vision and can make it work. Big companies that do
    not allow individual contribution I believe will eventually fail.

  3. Let the masses go without an understanding of underlying OS
    architecture. Let them go without a grasp of the intricacies of the
    technologies they are using. Let them make those mistakes, it only creates
    opportunity for those who are prepared.

My final point would be this. Just like the Linux people made an huge
impact, so can we. But we may have to do it for free for a while. We may
have to take a lot of personal risks and work really hard at it. We need to
be bold and unafraid. Yes, we may have to do some other things to pay our
mortgages, but if you can be creative, and be confident I know you like I,
will find a way. I really belive in this stuff. I really belive that
companies that choose to educate their developers and go with
technologically superior product will be ahead of the competition. They can
get their products to market fast and with more reliability and more
meaningfull features than anyone else.

Now that we’ve really had some good introspection, it is time to look
outward and to create opportunities for ourselves.

Have Faith and Be Bold!

Kevin












“Bill Caroselli” <qtps@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a3ot64$p5n$1@inn.qnx.com

“Igor Kovalenko” <> kovalenko@attbi.com> > wrote in message
news:a3nui5$31g$> 1@inn.qnx.com> …


2. Experience with problem area most of time considered more important
by
employers than experience with an OS. Customers are not interested in
elegance of underlying architecture. They are interested in features and
reliability and in many cases reliability comes in form of hardware
redundancy anyway. QNX is not even good at handling hardware redundancy.

I disagree that QNX is not good at handeling hardware redundancy. I have
developed many client server models where there were redundant servers.
The
servers would mirror each others data. Clients would load balance and
auto-reconnect to the othr server in the event of a server failure. All
of
this was transparant to the underlying application. The user just knew he
was connected to a high availability server.

\

Bill Caroselli – 1(626) 824-7983
Q-TPS Consulting
QTPS@EarthLink.net

Isn’t this an issue for the hardware bus architecture? Not the OS?

I have hot swapped SCSI drives on a SCSI chain quite successfully (under
QNX4). But there are appropriate utilities for mounting and unmounting
drives and partitions.


Bill Caroselli – 1(626) 824-7983
Q-TPS Consulting
QTPS@EarthLink.net


“Igor Kovalenko” <kovalenko@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:a3p2l2$sqc$1@inn.qnx.com

Using a redundant box is not always an option, sometimes you need to
hot-swap hardware within one and QNX won’t give you much in that
department.
Try swapping a hard drive > :wink:

  • igor

“Bill Caroselli” <> qtps@earthlink.net> > wrote in message
news:a3ot64$p5n$> 1@inn.qnx.com> …
“Igor Kovalenko” <> kovalenko@attbi.com> > wrote in message
news:a3nui5$31g$> 1@inn.qnx.com> …


2. Experience with problem area most of time considered more important
by
employers than experience with an OS. Customers are not interested in
elegance of underlying architecture. They are interested in features
and
reliability and in many cases reliability comes in form of hardware
redundancy anyway. QNX is not even good at handling hardware
redundancy.

I disagree that QNX is not good at handeling hardware redundancy. I
have
developed many client server models where there were redundant servers.
The
servers would mirror each others data. Clients would load balance and
auto-reconnect to the othr server in the event of a server failure. All
of
this was transparant to the underlying application. The user just knew
he
was connected to a high availability server.

\

Bill Caroselli – 1(626) 824-7983
Q-TPS Consulting
QTPS@EarthLink.net
\

“Kevin Stallard” <kevin@ffflyingrobots.com> wrote in message
news:a3p4ej$108$1@inn.qnx.com

My point is that it seems managers are somehow able to justify failure
easier when, on a technical level, they use stuff that everyone else is
using. It’s when they use stuff that isn’t well known and they fail that
they have nightmares. It is a strange phenomenon to me.

Agreed. No one get fired because they went down the road well traveled.

But . . .
this is why QNX MUST get into and stay in the mainstream press, every chance
they get and in every industry possible. Corporate America needs to see
that the road well traveled is usually not the best road, just the most
crowded.

  1. Big business isn’t going to pay attention to QNX any time soon. If
    you
    want to stick with QNX forget them.

Not true. Motorola, Sony, Philips and Visa all have multiple divisions that

are all dedicated to using QNX.


  1. Mangers and CEOs of big corporations are sheep and while they seem
    invincible, they are really very vulnerable. They are people too, you
    know.

And like sheep, they follow the fold. QNX needs more ink.

QNX has a great product. We (us consultants) can make it work in whatever
evnironment the client wants it, IF . . . we are not also having to do QNX’s
job of selling the OS as a solution.

QSSL, you have been doing what we say corporate america is doing. Your
trying to walk down the road well traveled. But that’s NOT what got you to
were you are today (or at least where you were a few years back). You had
the winning formula and you chose to flush it. You can’t be another
Microsoft. We don’t want you to be another Microsoft. We all hate what
Microsoft is all about. And personally I hate every move that you’ve made
to try to be more Microsoft-like.


Bill Caroselli – 1(626) 824-7983
Q-TPS Consulting
QTPS@EarthLink.net

Bill Caroselli wrote:

QSSL, you have been doing what we say corporate america is doing. Your
trying to walk down the road well traveled. But that’s NOT what got you to
were you are today (or at least where you were a few years back). You had
the winning formula and you chose to flush it. You can’t be another
Microsoft. We don’t want you to be another Microsoft. We all hate what
Microsoft is all about. And personally I hate every move that you’ve made
to try to be more Microsoft-like.

I disagree. Some of their Microsoft-like moves have been pretty good.
You’re forgetting something Bill, THINGS CHANGE. What was true several
years ago might not be true now. Strategies which worked then may be
obsolete and inefficient now (and I believe that is the case). If you
want to live and grow, you’ve got to change, even if that is perhaps
painful for consultants or someone else. When your kid grows up, he
wants out and you don’t like it either. But would you stop him or accept
that?

To elaborate a bit, few years ago there was no WinCE 3.0 (which being
bad is still MUCH better than WinCE 1.0). There was no WinNT Embedded
and no RtLinux in vogue. Basically, desktop market was so lucrative that
not many players even looked at embedded (which was very feature-limited
by those days hardware). Now everyone is trying to get there because all
estimates tell us embedded will dwarf desktop eventually. There’s lot
more pressure on QNX now and I am glad they are doing something major
about it rather than hiding heads into sand.

  • igor

I am really surprized how many people abuse term ‘hot-swap’. I mean HOT
swap guys, I really mean HOT. That is, pull darn harddrive or smash it
with a hammer while writing is in progress and make your application not
notice that. That would take a RAID and QNX does not support that. Or
try to HOT-swap a controller boards. CompactPCI boards can be
hot-swapped, plain PCI boards can be ‘warm-swapped’ (that is, you got to
stop I/O but don’t have to power-off system). QNX won’t really support
either. Hot or warm plugging requires PCI resource allocation and QNX
leaves that entirely to BIOS which won’t run. The pci_rescan_bus()
function won’t see your new hardware if it is behind a bridge, which is
almost always the case with CompactPCI.

To answer Armin, yes ‘regular’ OS-es can and do support that. And yes,
there are standards for that and I am not even talking about Motorola
implementation (which allows to hot-swap redundant CPU boards). And yes,
QNX is planning to support such things eventually, AFAIK. It just does
not yet.

  • igor

Bill Caroselli wrote:

Isn’t this an issue for the hardware bus architecture? Not the OS?

I have hot swapped SCSI drives on a SCSI chain quite successfully (under
QNX4). But there are appropriate utilities for mounting and unmounting
drives and partitions.


Bill Caroselli – 1(626) 824-7983
Q-TPS Consulting
QTPS@EarthLink.net

“Igor Kovalenko” <> kovalenko@attbi.com> > wrote in message
news:a3p2l2$sqc$> 1@inn.qnx.com> …
Using a redundant box is not always an option, sometimes you need to
hot-swap hardware within one and QNX won’t give you much in that
department.
Try swapping a hard drive > :wink:

  • igor

“Bill Caroselli” <> qtps@earthlink.net> > wrote in message
news:a3ot64$p5n$> 1@inn.qnx.com> …
“Igor Kovalenko” <> kovalenko@attbi.com> > wrote in message
news:a3nui5$31g$> 1@inn.qnx.com> …


2. Experience with problem area most of time considered more important
by
employers than experience with an OS. Customers are not interested in
elegance of underlying architecture. They are interested in features
and
reliability and in many cases reliability comes in form of hardware
redundancy anyway. QNX is not even good at handling hardware
redundancy.

I disagree that QNX is not good at handeling hardware redundancy. I
have
developed many client server models where there were redundant servers.
The
servers would mirror each others data. Clients would load balance and
auto-reconnect to the othr server in the event of a server failure. All
of
this was transparant to the underlying application. The user just knew
he
was connected to a high availability server.

\

Bill Caroselli – 1(626) 824-7983
Q-TPS Consulting
QTPS@EarthLink.net
\

Hi Bill,

  1. Big business isn’t going to pay attention to QNX any time soon. If
    you
    want to stick with QNX forget them.

Not true. Motorola, Sony, Philips and Visa all have multiple divisions
that
are all dedicated to using QNX.

What I meant was big business that is already entrenched in some other
development paradigm.

  1. If the ones that are entrenched won’t look at alternatives, then they’re
    likely gonna die soon anyway.

  2. I’m also speaking to QNX developers as a whole, not QSSL. Yes of course
    QSSL has to work these guys over, and yes when we see opportunities we need
    to go after them, but I’m not going to waste my time with big corporations,
    I want to find the new guys on the block that need a system and that I have
    a chance with… (man this is starting to sound like my dating years…)

  1. Mangers and CEOs of big corporations are sheep and while they seem
    invincible, they are really very vulnerable. They are people too, you
    know.

And like sheep, they follow the fold. QNX needs more ink.


QNX has a great product. We (us consultants) can make it work in whatever
environment the client wants it, IF . . . we are not also having to do
QNX’s
job of selling the OS as a solution.

Some of that will always be required (I think). It is good to be articlate,
I would like more indepth comparisons between QNX and VxWorks (I know there
is one, I just can’t fork over the dough right now).

QSSL, you have been doing what we say corporate america is doing. Your
trying to walk down the road well traveled. But that’s NOT what got you
to
were you are today (or at least where you were a few years back). You had
the winning formula and you chose to flush it. You can’t be another
Microsoft. We don’t want you to be another Microsoft. We all hate what
Microsoft is all about. And personally I hate every move that you’ve made
to try to be more Microsoft-like.

There are some lessons to be learned there, I wouldn’t discount them
entirely. They have spent a ton of money on GUI <—> user interaction
trials and studies, this is useful to us (just one of several examples).



Bill Caroselli – 1(626) 824-7983
Q-TPS Consulting
QTPS@EarthLink.net
\

Igor Kovalenko wrote:

CompactPCI boards can be
hot-swapped, plain PCI boards can be ‘warm-swapped’ (that is, you got to
stop I/O but don’t have to power-off system).

I don’t believe that plain PCI supports extraction or insertion of a PCI
board under power. That requires special carding that insures that the
ground plane is established before connecting other signals (which
compact PCI does have).

Kevin Stallard wrote:

There are some lessons to be learned there, I wouldn’t discount them
entirely. They have spent a ton of money on GUI <—> user interaction
trials and studies, this is useful to us (just one of several examples).

Which study (and how much did it cost ?) was it that produced the
[Start]->Shutdown menu hierarchy ? :slight_smile:

M$ is so dominant that whatever they do on the UI appears correct
(since it is by definition what most computer users understand - being
that if they don’t understand it they aren’t computer users - holy
circular logic batman!).

Personally, I would love to see QSSL have more M$ marketing capability

(for goodness sake who wouldn’t want QNX to be backed by the same

marketing savvy as Windoze ? - beside M$ of course :wink:

I have PCI board which does support warm swap (IBM/Mylex eXtremeRAID).
My understanding is, their software can somehow remove power from
particular PCI slot.

  • igor

Rennie Allen wrote:

Igor Kovalenko wrote:

CompactPCI boards can be
hot-swapped, plain PCI boards can be ‘warm-swapped’ (that is, you got to
stop I/O but don’t have to power-off system).

I don’t believe that plain PCI supports extraction or insertion of a PCI
board under power. That requires special carding that insures that the
ground plane is established before connecting other signals (which
compact PCI does have).

Rennie Allen <rallen@csical.com> wrote:

Igor Kovalenko wrote:

CompactPCI boards can be
hot-swapped, plain PCI boards can be ‘warm-swapped’ (that is, you got to
stop I/O but don’t have to power-off system).



I don’t believe that plain PCI supports extraction or insertion of a PCI
board under power. That requires special carding that insures that the
ground plane is established before connecting other signals (which
compact PCI does have).

The other thing you run into on non-x86 platforms is the concept of a
bus fault. Some hardware has positive acknowledgement that a memory
cycle has completed. Removing the hardware during a memory cycle
will bus fault the machine, and that’s a whole (different) kettle
of fish in and of itself… :frowning:

Cheers,
-RK


Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices +1 613 599 8316.
Realtime Systems Architecture, Books, Video-based and Instructor-led
Training and Consulting at www.parse.com.
Email my initials at parse dot com.

Well, I mean stuff that is a lot more basic than that. I was talking more
about the icon, mouse, click this, move a mouse of that and things happen.
The whole UI experience is a almost a discipline in it self. Quite frankly
I think they’ve done a pretty good job of it.

I mean there are somethings that should be the same in all systems so that
when it comes to training people they don’t have to learn things all over
again. Underlying OS architecture isn’t one of them, but a GUI I think
is.

I’ve done a lot of windows GDI work and doing non-standard stuff in win32,
and while I think it could have been architected better, the underlying
win32 api for drawing and the like (on a 32 bit os like winnt or win2k)
seems solid and predictable to me. There are some fluks, but overall you
can really do a lot. When I sit back to think about what is going on under
the hood, I have respect for it. It took a lot of work.


Kevin
“Rennie Allen” <rallen@csical.com> wrote in message
news:3C607FEE.70801@csical.com

Kevin Stallard wrote:


There are some lessons to be learned there, I wouldn’t discount them
entirely. They have spent a ton of money on GUI <—> user interaction
trials and studies, this is useful to us (just one of several examples).


Which study (and how much did it cost ?) was it that produced the
[Start]->Shutdown menu hierarchy ? > :slight_smile:

M$ is so dominant that whatever they do on the UI appears correct
(since it is by definition what most computer users understand - being
that if they don’t understand it they aren’t computer users - holy
circular logic batman!).

Personally, I would love to see QSSL have more M$ marketing capability

(for goodness sake who wouldn’t want QNX to be backed by the same

marketing savvy as Windoze ? - beside M$ of course > :wink:

Kevin Stallard <kevin@ffflyingrobots.com> wrote in article <a3q8a3$o28$1@inn.qnx.com>…

Well, I mean stuff that is a lot more basic than that. I was talking more
about the icon, mouse, click this, move a mouse of that and things happen.
The whole UI experience is a almost a discipline in it self. Quite frankly
I think they’ve done a pretty good job of it.

I heard that work was done by XEROX. I may be wrong, thought.

Eduard.